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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
 Posted - 09/18/2003 : 05:27:00
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The amount of times that I have had that nonsense spouted at me or overheard being discussed in social circles is starting to annoy me!
How can we as atheists defend the morality to which we lead our lives? Indeed, why should we? Aren't we 'proof' enough. If we had no morality and shot paperboys for letting the dog get at our sunday paper, then why would these accusers enjoy being in your 'circles'? We have morality. Often more pronounced than a lot of so called xtians. The main difference between the two sets of morals is, we as atheists have no deitys to judge us wgen we die. We'll be judged by how we live our lives on earth. Judged by the legal system, judged by our family and friends, our neighbours, peers and contemporaries. Xtians can lie, cheat, steal, and do whatever the hell they like provided they are humble in front of the lord and seek forgiveness for their sins.
Monkeys are officially more intellectually evolved than xtians, they don't need the threat of god(s) to be fair and true!
see this link for details
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3116678.stm
Actually, if Slater is around these days, I wonder if your studies with gorillas may have yielded something to support it. Simply 'cause of this line in the report, It just got me thinking!
quote:
"We are currently repeating the study on chimpanzees, a great ape species, to learn something more about the evolutionary development of the sense of fairness.
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"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2003 : 06:16:42 [Permalink]
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The argument is, of course, absolute nonsense. We are simply another social species. All social species have a code of conduct, be it horses, wolves, naked mole rats, or our own, foolish selves. The indiviudual in the community follows that code.
The difference is that we change the code -- witness the various historical, religious persecutions. At the time, they were the law of the community. And that's what gets us into trouble.
However, our basic, moral code remains unchanged, except for rogue individuals that would be killed or driven out of any, natural community.
I too, am tired of it, and the last time someone laid it on me, I laughed in his face and called him an idiot. Almost resulted in a bit of violence, except that he thought better of it in time. I no longer have patience for such shit.
 (Snakes cased up and all is battened down for a visit from the beautious Isabel). |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2003 : 16:08:25 [Permalink]
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I've heard this attitude as well. It's almost as if many Christians believe that morality itself was invented by Christians and it began with Jesus. As if there were no other religions before Christianity? Or that no other religion currently offers moral suggestions? I don't get it.
P.S. Anyone have a Tylenol or 3 or 7? I have the flu, and small men with jackhammers are pounding on my skull.  |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2003 : 16:57:37 [Permalink]
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Sympathy, reane. I'm just getting over it. At least, I've finally reached the point where I'm no longer considering suicide as an option.
Got some nostrums, but I don't think I can throw them that far.
Hang in.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2003 : 17:47:16 [Permalink]
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With proselytizing religious idiots, the best thing to do is to consider the source and not let yourself get bothered by numbsculls. You do not want to play their game and/or react to it, because they have won by getting you emotionally involved.
We all know that the religious fanatics are usually the most dangerous kinds of people because of their hatred of the free-thinking types of people. The religious imbeciles are afraid of anybody and anything that goes against their own thinking (whatever that might be, since real "thinking" seems to be out of the question for numbsculls).
If you let their animosity go in one ear and out the other, you will save yourself a lot of silliness (unless you like silliness, in which case, have fun!)
I never attempt to counter the arguments for or against such nonsense, because I would only get them riled up and very irrational. Do not give them an "inch" or they will take more than the proverbial "mile".
Religious people are boring. They believe all of that nonsense and want the rest of the world to go along with their irrationality. Get out of their presence, tactfully and quietly, because irrational people can be very dangerous (as history has shown over and over again). (Remember 9/11, which was accomplished by true believers?) Bad stuff!
ljbrs  |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2003 : 01:25:07 [Permalink]
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| Might I make a small suggestion? Perhaps we Atheists should reserve the use of the term "morality" as it is used by the sheep, i. e. for purely religio/theologico/puritanical/gawd considerations, and use the term "ethics" for legitimate human concerns. |
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2003 : 04:25:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ljbrs
With proselytizing religious idiots, the best thing to do is to consider the source ...
In fact, the only thing worse than proselytizing religious idiots are juvenile atheist idiots who can only define themselve through their ridicule of others.  |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2003 : 10:13:22 [Permalink]
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Morality is a tricky word. People of God are not necessarily moral, that is for sure. 911 jumps to mind. Very religious God fearing people who felt that there act of murdering 3,000 people was so moral that they had a free pass to heaven.
The Crusades are also an interesting lesson in religious morality. During the first Crusade when Jeruselem was taken over, the Christians slaughtered about 40,000 men, women and childeren for the crime of being jewish or moslem. There was a quote from the time that said God was pleased with them because they did not rape the women, which would be immoral, they instead systematically ran them through with their lances. Do you know how long it would take to kill that many people by hand?
I think that atheists can be very moral. But I suppose I would be considered morally bankrupt because I think it is immoral to prevent two people from getting married because they are of the same sex. I also think it is immoral to tell a child that if he has the wrong thoughts he will go to hell for eternity.
But hey thats just me. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2003 : 17:31:24 [Permalink]
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I never get bothered by what other people believe, unless they are proselytizing me about it and then I let them have it -- gently...
Then again, perhaps not so gently....
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2003 : 10:09:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bradley
Might I make a small suggestion? Perhaps we Atheists should reserve the use of the term "morality" as it is used by the sheep, i. e. for purely religio/theologico/puritanical/gawd considerations, and use the term "ethics" for legitimate human concerns.
I concur wholeheartedly, Bradley. I'm of the opinion that "morality" is imposed upon one from outside, while ethics are generated from within by a desire to be compassionate, a heartfelt concern for our fellow living beings, both human and otherwise. And compassion certainly can't be imposed from without, nor can it be taught or learned. It can only be a product of individual growth. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2003 : 10:51:20 [Permalink]
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I have to agree. Growth leads to atheism and skepticism and ethics and atheism and skepticism and ethics leads to growth.
quote:
I concur wholeheartedly, Bradley. I'm of the opinion that "morality" is imposed upon one from outside, while ethics are generated from within by a desire to be compassionate, a heartfelt concern for our fellow living beings, both human and otherwise. And compassion certainly can't be imposed from without, nor can it be taught or learned. It can only be a product of individual growth.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2003 : 14:34:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I have to agree. Growth leads to atheism and skepticism and ethics and atheism and skepticism and ethics leads to growth.
I suspect that growth leads to ethics along more than a few paths, not all of them via atheism and skepticism. In fact, it's unclear to me why atheism and skepticism should be seen as necessary prerequisited to ethics or personal growth. Theism may well be inaccurate, but that does not mean that the religious are pervasively wrong. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2003 : 16:30:58 [Permalink]
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| If you behave well towards others because your religion demands it, for either hope of reward or fear of punishment, you are behaving morally. If, on the other hand, you behave well towards others because of your innate compassionate nature, from a desire to do right by others, you are behaving ethically. If the latter is the case, it matters not whether you are a theist or an atheist. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2003 : 21:07:32 [Permalink]
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| Depends on your ethics, I suppose. If your ethics tell you that reality is important, then a rejection of reality would be unethical. Theism is a rejection of reality. A subjugation of reality to a fantasy world. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 04:50:05 [Permalink]
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| Also, one grows to the extent one becomes an atheist. It's almost a definition of growth. When you stop thinking something supernatural is going to save you from life, then you grow. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 07:12:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Also, one grows to the extent one becomes an atheist. It's almost a definition of growth.
This isn't a rational statement. It's a self-serving mantra which, like most mantras, is lacking in content. I would hardly consider Christians like Schweitzer or Diests like EO Wilson to be children. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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