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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2003 : 08:31:30 [Permalink]
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To the extent that they believed that the supernatural was going to save them from reality, they did not grow. When they learned there was no god(s) that were going to do what needed to be done, they grew.
Ask people who believe in god(s) what they can do with the idea of god(s) that I can't do without the idea of god(s). People who are reasonable and do "good" things, don't think that god really does much of anything.
quote:
It's a self-serving mantra which, like most mantras, is lacking in content. I would hardly consider Christians like Schweitzer or Diests like EO Wilson to be children.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 08:36:34 [Permalink]
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>“Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth.” -H.L. Mencken,
(1880-1956)
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 10:11:52 [Permalink]
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| It's really only self-serving if I use it in some way to show that I've attained some end point in growth. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 16:01:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
To the extent that they believed that the supernatural was going to save them from reality, they did not grow. When they learned there was no god(s) that were going to do what needed to be done, they grew.
I can not presume to speak for them, but I can tell you that in my case, this holds true. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 08:18:47 [Permalink]
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If focusing on a diety is a mechanism that facililtates moral or emotional growth...
isn't the resulting growth still growth?
Example: An alcoholic sobers up via AA, and their focus on the higher power thang helps them to be more responsible, honest, accountable, etc.
Someone else may see the alcoholic as doing all the work themselves--that is, an atheist might see the supernatural/religious pieces as nonexistent or irrelevant.
But for some people (not me, of course), religion is a mechanism for growth. I just wish some of them would stop yappin' about it.  |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 09:17:16 [Permalink]
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| Falling off a building is a mechanism for growth, or not. It isn't recommended, and there is nothing inherent in falling off a building which creates growth. The same holds true for religion. When people want to grow up, if they are capable, then they begin to do that. Religion only clouds the senses. It is not a mechanism for growth, it is a mechanism for distorting reality. Sometimes growth and all sorts of wonderful things happen at the same time. Sometimes they don't. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 10:08:46 [Permalink]
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If someone finds a greater sense of right and wrong, and tells you that their religion helped them get there--are you saying, Gorgo, that they are literally psychotic? Faith and belief are not subject to scientific testing; they are what they are. You don't share them and neither do I, but our lack of faith doesn't invalidate someone else's faith.
Religion is not the only way, and IMO not the best way for growth. Nor is it necessary for growth. But to deny that it's one possible way doesn't make sense to me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 10:18:51 [Permalink]
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Believing in fantasy helps no one. "Religion" is another matter. "Religion" is something that's made up of people of varying intelligence and emotional maturity who have some good ideas and bad ideas. Some of those people are bound to help some people and some of them are bound to hurt some people.
Rejecting reality never helped anyone accept reality except maybe in the same way that falling helps some people appreciate not falling.
AA is a good example of something that helps almost no one being touted as something that's an acceptable treatment. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 10:48:58 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I personally know people who've used AA to stop drinking and in essence, stop killing themselves. So it works for some.
I just don't agree with you here.
As a personal example: I believe my cat loves me in a cat-like way. His love is different from the love I feel toward my mom, for example, because I have different biology, etc. than my cat.
A scientist might tell me animals don't feel 'love'; that my cat licks my face because he thinks it's dirty and he's grooming me. A scientist might say he greets me at the door every night when I come home from work because he knows if he looks cute and acts affectionate, I give him food. A scientist might even say that his sleeping closer to me when I'm sick or upset just reflects an instict toward protecting his 'heard' from harm.
Maybe the scientist is correct, and my belief that his actions reflect love is wrong. But my belief gives me joy and comfort nonetheless--and it reminds me to grow and be more kind and gentle with creatures who depend on me. I don't give a rat's behind what the science says; science in this instance brings me no closer to peace or moral growth in striving to be kind to creatures who depend on me.
Now I sound like a Christian, and I'm absolutely not. I don't, however, try to define somebody else's reality. Heck, I have a hard enough time defining my OWN reality. 
Now I've gone and threadjacked a bit, and I'm ready for lunch besides.  My grilled cheese sandwich on sourdough awaits to give me culinary joy. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 12:30:56 [Permalink]
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You know some people who think they were helped by AA. There is just no evidence to think that they were helped by the 12 steps.
I don't know what scientists say about cats.
The only thing that "brings" you peace is your perception of yourself and the world around you. Peace is a set of thoughts and actions that you take. Nothing more. The idea of god brings peace to no one. Only their perception of themselves and the world around them "brings" them peace, however they define peace.
I'm not attempting to define someone else's reality. I can only speculate based upon what I am able to speculate on. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 18:42:50 [Permalink]
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| *Renae walks over to wall and bangs head* |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 06:04:31 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, interesting links about alcoholism. I'll read more about it.
The point I'm trying to make is that someone's belief can have a powerful effect on their self-image, behavior, and growth. That belief could be anything ("Building this homeless shelter is God's work" or "AA helps me stay sober" or "I'm going to do well on the GRE so I can gain admission to grad school".)
In the above examples, the homeless shelter is built regardless of whether or not God exists. The person is sober whether or not AA is scientifically proven to work. And (perhaps) the person does well on the GRE even though there's nothing in their history to suggest that they woulddo well.
Research that I'm too lazy to look up this morning points to the power of belief. An example that comes to mind is regarding athletes' performances. You've seen NBA shooters get streaky: fueled by confidence or the sense that they're 'in the groove', they make more and more shots. Did their technical skills suddenly jump from a 10-point per game capacity to a 30? No...but they were in The Zone-a zone fuled by the history of success that took root in their heads.
Belief in God doesn't make Him exist. Non-belief in God doesn't make him non-existent. But belief can drive you to good places--and bad places--in your life, and that's what I mean when I talk about religion as a tool.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 08:08:57 [Permalink]
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The word belief is another vague term with changing meanings that is slippery to use and probably is not worth another tangent. I'd rather think than believe. When I find a "belief" I try to lose it.
Good people who see the benefit of helping one another do so. If they want to find a god that justifies their view of the world, they will. George Bush and Hitler used god to justify their crimes and other people use god to try to explain a reality that they don't want to understand. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 08:43:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Good people who see the benefit of helping one another do so. If they want to find a god that justifies their view of the world, they will. George Bush and Hitler used god to justify their crimes and other people use god to try to explain a reality that they don't want to understand.
This is a very simplified view on religion. But in reality, religion and belief in a deity is much more complex. You can not disregard secondary effects of a belief-system or a religion.
I have to agree with Renae in this regard: The homeless shelter is the result of the secondary effect of the belief in God, which can not or should not be seperated from the belief.
Morality and ethics are close, to the point of superimposing each other. Perhaps the origin of the values is the only difference.
To a person with very diffuse sense of "morality", religion can become the tool which forms and shapes this person's morality to what is the christian's sense of what is Good and Right. (Not in the Fundie sense that homosexuals are to be put to death)
This person will grow. At least to a point where he needs to start walking on his own, without the support of his belief in God. From this point and forward his moral will change again into what we regard as ethics.
Taking myself as an example, my attendace to the pentecostal church did awaken my social consciousness, and helped define it. Together with Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" it became the foundation to my political views and my modest political work when I started to distance myself from the church. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/30/2003 08:45:11 |
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