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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/30/2003 : 09:23:52 [Permalink]
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Right. You found a church which fit into your view of the world at the time. "The Church" is people and religion. As I said, there are smart people in all organizations. A belief in god did nothing by itself. Other people's ideas and your ideas about how the world should be and is helped to form your religion. Religion is more a secondary effect of your ideas than the other way around, although you learn things in every organization. Belief in god(s) do nothing by themselves except cloud reality.
You move in and out of churches not because of god(s) but because you are looking for ideas that fit into your view of the world and which help you expand your view of the world.
People do things because they think the god that they created wants them to do what they think they want to do. They don't need god(s) to do any of those things, and it would be better if they didn't use god(s) as an excuse. Making fantasy better than reality is not a healthy thing.
Good people would (and do) do nice things because they'd want nice things done for them. To have them do nice things because some fantasy being tells them to do it is too dangerous and while the effect may seem positive, that negative intent is still there and is dangerous. In my non-scientific fantasy view of the whole thing, of course. (0: |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 06:31:25 [Permalink]
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| Maybe to put it all in a better way, there is nothing good about believing in god(s). Good people will continue to do good things and they'll do it better when they lose their fear of reality and lose the need to believe in god(s). |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 09:39:18 [Permalink]
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Why presume that morality is dependent on religion? Or, show me an atheist that has no morals? The law of the land may be intertwined with religious ideals, but the judge and jury of a court of law have no pass sentence regardless of God. If God was neccesary to distinguish between right and wrong, then every religion is false because they all have different ideas of right and wrong. Further, what makes God decide what is right and wrong when God is not a part of human decision? God may be "out there" somewhere, but i never saw Him justify the miscarriage, or the slaying of an innocent prisoner, or the trampling to death of someone by an elephant etc etc. What makes you so sure that God cares how we choose to define right and wrong? And where is God when humans make those decisions?
So do Atheists have morals? Yes, i think so. Why? Because anything that destroys something without sanity or proper discrimination, coupled with emotion, is by all means, immoral. Is it immoral for a person to kill themselves by smoking cigarettes for 40 years? We say 'no - because..' but it is immoral for a person to commit suicide quicker. God doesn't even come into this. God cannot possibly care whether you die quickly or not. SO, in the end, morals without God stand by themselves.
Touche' |
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goat
New Member
USA
1 Post |
Posted - 10/03/2003 : 06:39:33 [Permalink]
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| Interesting thread. Being an atheist parent of two young children, I have given some thought to this issue. I believe that my children will grow into adults with a strong set of values, ethics or morals to allow them to be succesful in our society. But have wondered how others would fare if the vast majority of people accepted that there is no god. Is it the fear of eternal damnation that keeps people somewhat in line, or the fear of going to prison? Limiting my focus to the US, because unfortunately that is all I have experience with, I believe that it is the fear of punishment here on earth rather than the afterlife. Although a majority of Americans say they believe in god I suspect most live by the rules of society rather than the rules of god. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 06:14:43 [Permalink]
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| Hi, Goat and welcome! I have wondered the same thing, as far as religion 'keeping people in line'. The bigger picture though is that God and religion are always brought in to help wage wars. I am looking for ONE speech where Bush doesn't invoke God. Without religion I think it would be alot more difficult to convice people to sacrifice there lives. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 08:36:29 [Permalink]
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| I also wonder if punishment does more harm than good. But that's another thread for another time. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Arcanix_X
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2003 : 13:33:26 [Permalink]
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As an atheist, I am no longer subject to the RULES of the church, but that dose not forbid me from judging and adopting it's sometimes more the necessary teachings. Another difference between me and a religious person is that science will present a far more interesting and understandable thing to me then it will to a religious person.
What else.... aaaa and i won't go out on the street screaming "The end is near!!! Turn to the Lord! I had a vission." and I woun't go to the amazonian rain forest in the hope of converting the "godless savages". Otherwise, I see no difference. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 02:41:17 [Permalink]
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When discussing morality, its definition is a critical point. The word has different meanings for different people. Inevidably in leads to your set of beliefs. One can believe they are entirely moral people because they do not steal or murder people and try to be nice to others. Those same people may use God's name in vain and sleep with other people's wives, but because those things are not in their code of ethics, they believe themselves to be moral. Another person can believe it's wrong to eat meat or cut down trees and they live by that creed, though lying and coveting their neighbor's car are also some of the things they do. Some have much longer codes of ethics including the ten commandments and belief in Christ, however, the longer one's code of ethics, the greater the possibility of breaking one's code, the shorther the code, the less do's and don'ts. So which is better?
Then there is the aspect that no matter what your code of ethics, you have probably failed to keep them all. Your failure is only evidence of your flawed nature and fallible thinking. Such flaws tend to point out that when considering yourself to be "moral", immorality still lies within you. So why try to boast in your morality that only points out your failure to keep it, or why try to boost yourself over the religious guy's morality when it's evident that he fails to keep his codes and even admits to it. Perhaps the flaw of pride (thinking too highly of ourselves) that seems to infects everyone at one time, is what brings about such discussions and leads to the hatred seen to too often in these forums. How many groups estol hatred of others as acceptable morality? Let's see, there's the KKK, the black power groups like Farakan, Osama and his buddies, radical Muslims, Nazis, and communists. Then we have within groups: republicans that hate democrats, and democrats that hate republicans, christians who hate atheists, atheists who hate christians, and on and on.
In summary, the definition of morality is different in each group based on one's beliefs. All people break their own codes, whether they admit it or not. Thinking too highly of yourself promotes strife and can lead to hatred. And finally....we need help! |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 12:00:02 [Permalink]
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| Impressive post Doomar. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 21:24:24 [Permalink]
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| If an individual is convinced that their moral behavior is a result of their belief (faith in/fear of) in their personal god, then a reasonable course of action would be to avoid that individual. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 09:42:48 [Permalink]
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Not to be overly simplistic but the major points in morality are quite simple and almost universal. The overriding principle is "It is immoral to do stuff to someone that you do not want done to you". Now of course this is based on the average population - not psychopaths.
That is why the 10 commandments, the precepts of the Buddhists and most of the other religions major rules are pretty much the same on many points.
Religion and Nationalisim distort the finer points of morality. These ideas allow for war and hatred. It also allows for things like slavery - the bible says that slaves should be foriegners. And of course the US got it's slaves from another contienent. It is OK to talk about the muslims as dirty towel heads and the crazies "over there". This is a double whammy - Nationalisim and Religion. I actually don't know anyone from the near east so I am assuming that it is immoral to hate them, just as I think it would be immoral for them to hate me.
So my morality is based on the golden rule. For that reason I do not find homosexuality or prostitution immoral - no one is forcing anything on me. I do not find drug use immoral - I find it a sad and stupid waste of a life, but not immoral. I feel that gossip is much more immoral than either of the last to items.
Religion simply takes the morality of a population and legitimizes it through the belief in a diety or supernatural forces.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 23:27:12 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
. . . And finally....we need help!
I would agree with Dr. Mabuse, except for the above quoted last thought.
If a person behaves well per the ideas of the general population, and asks forgiveness from those people he/she has wronged through breaking his/her own moral code (or, to be politic, theirs), what "help" is required?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 11:13:14 [Permalink]
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| Dr Mabuse - funny baby karate master! How often does he change his diapers? |
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