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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2004 :  11:25:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
I think all he was saying was that the strong live and the weak die. We don't decide who is strong and weak, natural selection does that for us.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2004 :  11:49:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Actually, I think Chaloobi was just joking, expressing the sentiments of a wanna-be genetic superman.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2004 :  12:55:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Actually, I think Chaloobi was just joking, expressing the sentiments of a wanna-be genetic superman.

Yes, I agree.

The superhuman would not initially be antagonistic against us "mongrels" but being superior would invoke jealousy and later antagonistic feelings in the "mongrels". Then the superhuman would have to defend himself, and being superior, this persons life would be worth much more than anyone else's.

And Dude, I agree with you about corrupt people seeking power, but I also believe that power does corrupt. If it's very easy to use power for personal gain, it will be easier to give in to the temptation.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2004 :  13:00:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Well, still, on a basic level, those of us who survive natural selection will be "superior". If somehow aids mutated so that it could be spread through contact (I know aids is an envelope virus, and it would be extremely improbable, but just go with me on this) then those of us who had the genetic difference which makes us immune to aids (which we know exists right now) would survive, and thus become "superior".

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2004 :  18:45:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Well, Ricky, it's good you put "superior" in quotes, because in your AIDS example, just about anything would be "superior" to "dead."

Seriously, "superior" to other, living humans is the comparison to be made here. The kind of superiority to which Loobi was referring - faster, stronger, more artistic, etc. - could lead one to be an insufferable jerkwad, thus leaving no offspring and so being vastly inferior in Darwinian terms.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2004 :  05:46:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Who says jerkwads don't have children? There are 5 of them who live on my street and they have kids. Hahah, it would be funny if being a jerk was genetic.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2004 :  06:21:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Well, Ricky, it's good you put "superior" in quotes, because in your AIDS example, just about anything would be "superior" to "dead."

Seriously, "superior" to other, living humans is the comparison to be made here. The kind of superiority to which Loobi was referring - faster, stronger, more artistic, etc. - could lead one to be an insufferable jerkwad, thus leaving no offspring and so being vastly inferior in Darwinian terms.

He'd also have superior understanding. He'd be a master manipulator. A master persuader. A master politician. His charisma would be irrisistable. All the mongrel masses would gladly turn over political power to him. They would thank him for his leadership.

...

BTW - of COURSE I was joking.

-Chaloobi

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2004 :  02:42:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Darwin was a child of his times, as are we all. He was no more raciest than anyone else of the day.

Here are some quotes from the writings and speeches of Adolf Hiter:

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work. -Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

There is a road to freedom. Its milestones are Obedience, Endeavor, Honesty, Order, Cleanliness, Sobriety, Truthfulness, Sacrifice, and love of the Fatherland. -Message, signed Hitler, painted on walls of concentration camps; Life, August 21, 1939

Woman's world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men. -Adolph Hitler, quoted in Lucy Komisar, The New Feminism

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people. -Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933

I have followed (the Church) in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it. -Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. -Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125

This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152

And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174

Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so -Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941

Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 1

I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 2

...the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3

As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3

Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1,

Chapter 3
For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes! -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3

In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol.

1, Chapter 3
It (Christian Social Party) recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents. -

Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3
The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3

If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of the Christian Social movement

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 5

I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a bela

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2004 :  20:27:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Was there a point to that, filthy?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2004 :  23:39:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
He reformatted the end to make it easier to read.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 10/10/2004 23:40:30
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2004 :  03:27:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Was there a point to that, filthy?

What Ricky said.

I can put it back the way it was, if you'd prefer.

Hehehe, edited to add that it's not often that we catch you not paying attention.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 10/11/2004 04:49:08
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2004 :  06:20:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Oh lordy.

Saying that Darwin was racist is disregarded as just ad hominem (or whatever you spell that). Darwin was a human being and he certainly wasn't perfect. You forget to mention almost everybody in his time thought the same.

His first draw of the theory wasn't perfect either and whatever he thought about anything is irrelevant to the scientific idea he brought forth (unless they were somehow correlated, which they aren't). I reserve the right to admire his works, regardless of his flaws as well as his qualities.

Saying evolution was Hitler's hobby when he decided to exterminate the Jews and because of that evolution is dangerous and should be avoided is just like saying the whole world of physics is wrong because a stupid American president decided to blow Hiroshima off the map with it, or that teaching quantum mechanics is wrong because people can make bombs out of it. I wonder why people haven't decided to outlaw physics yet... oh that's right, it's not 'subversive'.

Either case, quoting misuses of evolution won't make it disappear, neither prove it wrong. Same way, the atoms will still fuse themselves and generate a lot of energy and the subparticles of the atoms will still follow their happy paths, regardless of what you or anybody else thinks, or the uses you make of it.

Best we educate children on it and warn of the possible outcomes than ignore it at all, heh?

Edited for spelling a couple other niceties.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Edited by - Siberia on 10/11/2004 06:33:46
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