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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 10/23/2003 : 21:19:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
creation88:
And also, please stop telling me to make up my own mind. While I have mentors in my life, I as in MYSELF made up my mind on this matter and many others that I believe strongly in.
Your mentors are failing you in the area of science. Badly... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 22:13:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by creation88
Furshur: Here is a good way to look at the laws of Thermodynamics.
The simple answer:
1. You can't get something from nothing.
1. My point exactly
No, it's not. You are forgetting that evolution get something from the Sun.
Without the sun there wouldn't be any life of earth. At least you agree on that, don't you?
The more complex answer:
1. You can't get something from nothing.
1. My point exactly
Yes, and No. As far as thermodynamics is concerned, this is true. But you have to remember something important about SCIENCE: a theory is rarely complete, and is only approximately describing reality.
The theory of thermodynamics was developed long before quantum mechanics. Quantum Mechanics describe how you can get something out of nothing. But that's a completely different story.
There are also rules that tells us HOW to apply each theory. You seem oblivious to how, and in what situations, thermodynamics is applicable.
You just don't see the bigger picture because you're too focused on the details. You can't apply thermodynamics on evolution the way you do. The bigger picture in this case is that we have an external energy-source: the Sun.
2. The best you can do is break even.
2. And your saying that evolution hase not improved. It's only broken even.
No. Because Earth is not a closed system. It can not be treated as such. This comment shows that you need to study more thermodynamics. And more evolution for that matter.
3. You can only break even at absolute zero.
3. Please tell me what this one means haha.
At absolute zero you're as close to 'game over' as you can get.
And also, please stop telling me to make up my own mind. While I have mentors in my life, I as in MYSELF made up my mind on this matter and many others that I believe strongly in.
Your mentors are feeding you lies!
Wherever you get your information from, it's giving you a very distorted view of how the world works, and what science is.
PLEASE just ask us, and we will give you some science lessons.
I don't mind you making up your own mind, but you should make sure you have all the facts straight before you do it. If you're standing at a cross-road and is unsure what way to go, you can't make the right choice if you only have a small piece the map...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 07:58:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I'm sure most of you are familier with the law of Entropy. I f you aren't, it basicly says that everything goes from order to dis-order, complexity to decay from hot to cold.
Is that why you started out as one cell and become an advanced complex lifeform? Is that why you were growing when you were younger? Interesting :-)
quote:
Evolution completly goes against this law of thermodynamics. I mean think about it. In evolution, atoms allegedly self produce amino acids, amino acids auto organize amoebas, amoebas urn into apes, and apes turn into astronauts.
Mathmatician and physicist, Sir Arthur Eddington demonstrated that exactly the opposite is true: The energy of the universe irraversably flows from hot to cold bodies. The sun burns up billions of tons of hydrogen each second, stars burn out, and species eventually become extinct. More and more each day I start to think, that evolution should be called science FICTION, not just science.
But the sun was formed 5 billion years ago, right? Life did arise, did it not? People grow, don't they? Apparently this all happens while violating thermodynamics? :) |
| Edited by - Maverick on 10/25/2003 02:39:28 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 08:02:06 [Permalink]
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Creation, I said make up your own mind and don't be a parrot. You are trying to disprove evolution by using "the law of entropy". This is not something that anyone who understands entropy would try to do. You do not understand thermodynamics and you are simply repeating what has been written by someone else who also does not understand thermodynamics. If you believe in the literal bible that is fine, but trying to prove this by using sound scientific principles is going to be very dificult.
I will try to clarify my spin (actually, I heard this in one of my Navy training classes)on the 3 laws of thermodynamics.
1. You can't get something for nothing.
This is why you cannot have a perpetual motion machine. If you put a steam kettle on the burner you will of course get heated steam out of the spout. You cannot get more heat coming out of the steam kettle than you put into it. If you could then you could use a candle to make steam to heat your whole house. Pretty obvious, but that is basically what all these perpetual motion nuts are trying to say.
2. The best you can do is break even.
Heat flows from a hot body to a cold body. For example the operation of the refrigerator does not "put cold air into the fridge", the comperssor and cooling coils just remove heat from the fridge. So in a steam turbine for instance work is extracted from the steam by having the steam move across the turbine blades from hot/high pressure to cool/low pressure. The best you can do is break even but of course you actually never break even because of losses due to friction, heating the turbine and you cannot extract ALL of the heat from the steam.
3. You can only break even at absolute zero.
What this means (ha ha) is that to extract all of the work (break even) from the heat flow (remembe hot to cold) you must have the final temperature at absolute zero. Absolute zero is -273.15 degrees C. Temperature is the "measure of the average translation kenetic energy of the molecules in a substance". That $1.75 phrase simply means hotter things have the molecules vibrating faster. At absolute zero (theroetically) there is no molecular motion. Of course you would also have to have a frictionless turbine and have it perfectly insulated to actually extract all of the work.
The best way to look at entropy is to think of it as you can't get something for nothing.
Lets look at the formation of our Solar system (for fun lets look at it from a scientific terms 5 billion years ago). You might say OK a big diffuse gas cloud condenses into a a star with planets and life starts on #3 and through billions of years of evolution man populates the earth and discovers the laws of thermodynamics. How in the world does this not violate our understanding of entropy!!!
First lets look at the sum total of all of the gas/dust (matter) and its temperature/movement (energy) in this region (tens of light years in diameter) of space before the formation of the solar system.
Then look at the sum total of the all of the matter and energy in the current solar system in that same region of space, you would find that the matter/energy has decreased - entropy has increased. The sun is converting matter directly to energy that energy is radiating into space, this is a BIG time increase in entropy. Entropy means that in the far distant future we can expect a universe that is much more vast with very diffuse matter and at an extremely low temperature.
Now if you look at a small piece of that dust cloud (say 100 million miles in diameter) and then look at that same small region after there is the sun and 3 planets planets there you would rightfully say the entropy of THAT SMALL AREA HAS DECREASED. The point is the entropy of the universe has increased and the entropy of that region (tens of light years in diameter) has increased.
A more formal explination of Entropy is:
dS=dQ/T dS - entropy dQ - heat flow T - temperature
The change in Entropy of the universe.
(change)S = Q/T(cold) - Q/T(hot)
Since heat flows from hot to cold the entropy is always >0.
Do not take my word for it, continue your education and investigate it yourself. This is a fascinating universe we live in, and I for one am not going to close my mind to an idea because of the fear that the devil is trying to trick me.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 21:23:27 [Permalink]
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You know, C-88, if you would take the time to read and try to understand some of the explanations and references the other posters have kindly been providing, you might discover a few things:
1. There's nothing in our current understanding of physics that prohibits a local decrease in entropy provided that the account of the system (in this case the universe) as a whole remains balanced.
(just in case your church hasn't gotten this far, neither Earth nor the solar system constitute the universe).
2. Entropy is not synonymous with disorder.
3. The arguments you grab from religious-propaganda Web sites and bring here to snipe at the heathens with are Moldy Oldies. They've been examined and found wanting in detail umpteen times already- that's why you find them in the TalkOrigins FAQ (remember, FAQ stands for Frequently Asked Questions), and so many of our members have the details ready to hand.
I can hardly view all the effort you're putting into preserving your ignorance of any scientific concept that might contradict what your mentors are telling you to think as making up your own mind. Such an exercise in orthodoxy insurance is better called by its Newspeak name: crimestop.
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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nwc
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 20:47:48 [Permalink]
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Sounds like a cop out to me
We've worn out the topic etc etc..
You have no answers so you move on.
You can't explain so you change the subject..
[Cut-and-paste from The Institute for Creation Research deleted for copyright reasons - Dave W.]
Yes a copy and paste.. |
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nwc
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 21:09:12 [Permalink]
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Someone's quote "1. You can't get something for nothing.
This is why you cannot have a perpetual motion machine. If you put a steam kettle on the burner you will of course get heated steam out of the spout. You cannot get more heat coming out of the steam kettle than you put into it. If you could then you could use a candle to make steam to heat your whole house. Pretty obvious, but that is basically what all these perpetual motion nuts are trying to say."
This one goes against evolution because how, why, when did these gases form that caused the "big bang", Since you can't have something from nothing this would be impossible? Then to say these gases expanded and created life and continue to evolve into what exists today would be impossible, would we not be devolving? Someone mentioned that they had a bicycle tire and inflated it, using this arguments supports creation, something had to pump up the tire, just the same as something had to create this earth it would not inflate by itself and the earth can not exist with out a creator. |
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nwc
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 21:37:29 [Permalink]
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Stop being a parrot?
Evolution is prominently taught in all schools and colleges.. Scratch that only taught in all our schools!
How can he (creation88) by questioning the many many many many problems with the so called "theory" (I use that term loosely)of evolution be called a parrot. You all sound like parrots with your copy and pasted articles by people whose names you probably can't even pronounce. All repeating the same lame arguments that have been disproved over and over and debating still and not yet laid to rest.. Then you claim these arguments have all be shot down and have already been answered so on and so forth.. WHERE? when? no they haven't, prominent scientist Victor F. Weisskopf himself was quoted "The evolutionary history of the world from the 'big bang' to the present universe is a series of gradual steps from the simple to the complicated, from the unordered to the organized, from the formless gas of elementary particles to the morphic atoms and molecules and further to the still more structured liquids and solids, and finally to the sophisticated living organisms. There is an obvious tendency of nature from disorder to order and organization. Is this tendency in contradiction to the famous second law of thermodynamics, which says that disorder must increase in nature? The law says that entropy, the measure of disorder, must grow in any natural system." Evolutionists can't get around this problem, and neither can you.
So what I really wanted to say was, Polly want a cracker? |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 21:40:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by creation88
I'm sure most of you are familier with the law of Entropy. I f you aren't, it basicly says that everything goes from order to dis-order, complexity to decay from hot to cold.
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Is that why you started out as one cell and become an advanced complex lifeform? Is that why you were growing when you were younger? Interesting :-)
quote:
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Evolution completly goes against this law of thermodynamics. I mean think about it. In evolution, atoms allegedly self produce amino acids, amino acids auto organize amoebas, amoebas urn into apes, and apes turn into astronauts.
Mathmatician and physicist, Sir Arthur Eddington demonstrated that exactly the opposite is true: The energy of the universe irraversably flows from hot to cold bodies. The sun burns up billions of tons of hydrogen each second, stars burn out, and species eventually become extinct. More and more each day I start to think, that evolution should be called science FICTION, not just science.
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But the sun was formed 5 billion years ago, right? Life did arise, did it not? People grow, don't they? Apparently this all happens while violating thermodynamics? :)
Wow....not the sharpest tool in the shed are we? That's EXACTLY my point. It all go's against the entropy law. As you said people do grow. Then they wither and die. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 22:33:35 [Permalink]
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nwc wrote:quote:
Sounds like a cop out to me
We've worn out the topic etc etc..
You have no answers so you move on.
You can't explain so you change the subject..
Actually, it seems to me that it's more along the lines of "the people we explain the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to refuse to listen" than it is that we "can't explain" it.quote:
Yes a copy and paste..
Which makes laughable the idea that evolutionists are the ones parroting stuff.
To these eyes, the ICR is guilty of completely failing to understand the laws of thermodynamics, but staking their position upon that false understanding, anyway. That you, nwc, simply repeat the ICR's arguments (without proper attribution) would generally brand you a hypocrite.
In a second post, you simply attempt to conflate biological evolution with the Big Bang theory. They are two different subjects. Arguing against one, even if you did so successfully, would not invalidate the other.
Beyond which, scientists agree that nobody knows where the energy for the Big Bang came from, and so they don't even know if it violated the 2nd Law (or even if the 2nd Law applied "before" the Big Bang occured).
And then Creation88 wrote:quote:
Wow....not the sharpest tool in the shed are we? That's EXACTLY my point. It all go's against the entropy law. As you said people do grow. Then they wither and die.
A person growing from a fertilized egg to a full-grown adult does not violate the "entropy law," since while there is a local (within the person's body) reduction in entropy, there is a compensating increase in entropy in the outside world, as the growing person converts useful energy into wasted heat, and "organized" food into chaotic waste. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 03:14:25 [Permalink]
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Oh MAN... These guys are giving my ulcer.
quote:
Originally posted by nwc
Stop being a parrot?
Evolution is prominently taught in all schools and colleges.. Scratch that only taught in all our schools!
It's taught for very good reasons. It is science, and it has time and time again proved to be the best explanation for our existence.
quote:
How can he (creation88) by questioning the many many many many problems with the so called "theory" (I use that term loosely)of evolution be called a parrot.
No need to use the term loosely. The many many many many problems you have derives from a too limited understanding of theory of biological evolution, general physics, and the scientific term "theory" in the first place.
quote:
WHERE? when? no they haven't, prominent scientist Victor F. Weisskopf himself was quoted "The evolutionary history of the world from the 'big bang' to the present universe is a series of gradual steps from the simple to the complicated, from the unordered to the organized, from the formless gas of elementary particles to the morphic atoms and molecules and further to the still more structured liquids and solids, and finally to the sophisticated living organisms. There is an obvious tendency of nature from disorder to order and organization. Is this tendency in contradiction to the famous second law of thermodynamics, which says that disorder must increase in nature? The law says that entropy, the measure of disorder, must grow in any natural system." Evolutionists can't get around this problem, and neither can you.
Where did you get this quote?
I'm quite sure it is pulled out of it's context. It's a very often-used tactics. I bet there is more where that came from and I bet it answers the rhetorical question he posed.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 05:56:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Wow....not the sharpest tool in the shed are we? That's EXACTLY my point. It all go's against the entropy law. As you said people do grow. Then they wither and die.
Don't hold so tightly to your absolute truth that it isolates you from the truth of reality and limits your exposure to knowledge.
Even though my original reaction to your post was, "Oh no, not again". Having read the entire thread and some of the links, I come away having learned something.
Eyes wide open along with your mind. I think a truly loving and caring creator would approve. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 06:19:33 [Permalink]
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C'88:
quote:
And your saying that evolution hase not improved. It's only broken even.
Exactly! Now at last, we're getting somewhere!
Evolution has not 'improved' anything. We are not a whit superior to to the dinosaurs, nor indeed even to the single-celled life of 3.5 billion years ago. We are merely one of the latest variations of life on the planet.
You see, and I'm sure this has been mentioned before, evolution has no goal. All of the previous species related to us evolved into certain enviorments that led to us. If a period of climate were a little different, we might well have not come into existance. If the Dinos hadn't suffered some really bad luck, our species would still be rather rat-like creatures scuttling about trying not to become lunch.
We are not the ultimate product. Assuming that we don't find some really cool and noisy method of killing ourselves off, we too, will change over time. And ultimatly become as extinct as Neandertalisis, which is the ultimate fate of all species.
Some species are very ancient, showing little change over the eons, while we are very young. Looked at from an evolutionary point of view, the cockroach, the dragonfly, and the horseshoe crab, among many others, are vastly our superiors. Of course, we are killing them off as fast as we can, and that makes us an evolutionary force. We actually cause evolutionary process's -- witness insects becomming resistant to chemical bug-killers, bacterium to anti-biotics, coyotes surviving in urban settings, etc. In a few hundreds of thousands, or perhaps millions, of years, what will earth's life become?
I don't know and neither does anyone else. But we can be certain that life will be here, even though nothing resembling us might be around to see it. A pity.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 10:31:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by nwc
Sounds like a cop out to me
Please indcate exactly what paragraph you think is a cop-out, and why. Then we'll answer you.
quote:
We've worn out the topic etc etc..
You have no answers so you move on.
Yeah right... Look at the date of the posts previous to yours, and tell me who bailed first.
Of course, that is by no means any indication as to who is actually right.
quote:
You can't explain so you change the subject..
Obviously we haven't managed to explain WHY we are right, so we try different angles to penetrate the armour of belief you are shielding your ignorance with.
Edit: Spelling |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/26/2004 13:04:08 |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2004 : 05:48:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by creation88
I'm sure most of you are familier with the law of Entropy. I f you aren't, it basicly says that everything goes from order to dis-order, complexity to decay from hot to cold.
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Is that why you started out as one cell and become an advanced complex lifeform? Is that why you were growing when you were younger? Interesting :-)
quote:
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Evolution completly goes against this law of thermodynamics. I mean think about it. In evolution, atoms allegedly self produce amino acids, amino acids auto organize amoebas, amoebas urn into apes, and apes turn into astronauts.
Mathmatician and physicist, Sir Arthur Eddington demonstrated that exactly the opposite is true: The energy of the universe irraversably flows from hot to cold bodies. The sun burns up billions of tons of hydrogen each second, stars burn out, and species eventually become extinct. More and more each day I start to think, that evolution should be called science FICTION, not just science.
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But the sun was formed 5 billion years ago, right? Life did arise, did it not? People grow, don't they? Apparently this all happens while violating thermodynamics? :)
Wow....not the sharpest tool in the shed are we? That's EXACTLY my point. It all go's against the entropy law. As you said people do grow. Then they wither and die.
If what I said was exactly what you said, then I understand why you think I'm not "the sharpest tool in the shed", which also makes the use of the word "we" make sense. Anyway...
Are you suggesting that the laws of nature violate themselves? Are you saying that we should believe your own version of the 2nd law of thermodynamics simply because you think it proves you right? Why would you use the 2nd law of thermodynamics if you don't even believe in it?
Do you think that everything falls apart all the time without exception, then you don't know what you're talking about... especially since you can clearly see that this does not happen. Still, you believe it happens and you believe that a creator is needed to stop it from happening even though it does happen anyway. Are you suggesting that the elements do not have different chemical properties that makes them react with other elements in certain ways under certain circumstances? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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