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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2001 : 00:59:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
It is only "slang" in the sense that the jargon of science is slang to those who do not practice science.
Mr. T, what you just said is a bunch of goblebly goop, how's that for slang? IN ENGLISH, I mean that's nonsense.
The word strawman is slang. If you want to say one's argument is not in keeping with the subject being discussed then say so, in plain English.
Thank you,
nlm
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 06:14:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Reasoning may or may not follow the rules of logic.
But is it possible for correct reasoning not to follow the rules of logic, even if we don't know the technical terms?
quote:
Logic is a helpful tool, but it is only that, a tool. First, you must determine if all your premises are true or false. Logic is a tool that will help you determine if the inductions drawn are correct.
What other tools are there?
In defense of what is being discussed in this instance, I really don't think it's unreasonable at all to assume everyone here know's (or should know) what a strawman is, or easily understand what it is once pointed to a definition (no offense, Snake!  ). That assumption may prove wrong, but I don't think think anyone should be blamed for assuming it.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 07:09:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
It is only "slang" in the sense that the jargon of science is slang to those who do not practice science. But as to those that pratice reasoning, this particular fallacy is part of the common lexicon of logic, it is to be found in any nearly introductory logic text. I would think that avowed skeptics would first and foremost value valid and sound reasoning, and thus make use of the technical terminology of the logicians.
I'm not trying to be a high and mighty philosopher here, I'm just trying to describe arguments as they are that we may reason correctly.
Reasoning may or may not follow the rules of logic. You seem to be well educated in the subject, however, because you are and practice it with such rigidity does not mean that all who are skeptics follow such rigidity.
Logic is a helpful tool, but it is only that, a tool. First, you must determine if all your premises are true or false. Logic is a tool that will help you determine if the inductions drawn are correct.
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Neither is the study of logic strictly the only way to skepticism. If you view the beginning and the end of skepticism as only through the rules of logic then you need to look and check your own biases at the door. Not everyone has the luxury of having the time to make sure that every argument made is perfectly acceptable to the rules of logic. You imply that this is the only acceptable means by which to argue or debate any point.
Not everyone here has the time or the resources to become as well versed in logic as you. Some of us do use and apply skepticism in our daily lives and in areas that most individuals don't bother to consider and to worry about. That's probably why we are self avowed skeptics.
Reason correctly. I must reason according to your rules? Sounds like dogmatism to me.
When I talk about logic, I'm not talking about some obscure branch of symbolic representation or strict deductive reasoning. I'm talking about the practice of reasoning correctly, nothing more or less. I think we would agree that this is a good thing. If someone reasons poorly by engaging in fallacy or failing to consider the proper burden of evidence, it is indeed the role of the skeptic to point this out.
It is not a matter of "my rules" at all but of sound premises and valid inference. Without these, the reasoning simply is not correct.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 07:36:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
It is only "slang" in the sense that the jargon of science is slang to those who do not practice science.
Mr. T, what you just said is a bunch of goblebly goop, how's that for slang? IN ENGLISH, I mean that's nonsense.
Gobblely goop is indeed a good example of slang, Snake. Now, if you were to say that what I wrote was noncognitive that would be philosophical jargon. Similarly, Darwin's slime puddle is creationist slang, primordial soup it is scientific jargon. Going nuts is common slang, having a mental breakdown is psychological jargon. Suing your ass off is slang, seeking maximal punitive damages is legal jargon. Pussy lips - vulgar slang ; labia majora - medical jargon, so it is also with asshole and anus, or piece of shit and stool sample. I'm getting carried away here so I'll stop.
quote:
The word strawman is slang. If you want to say one's argument is not in keeping with the subject being discussed then say so, in plain English.
The word strawman is widely accepted to mean "an parody argument which does not accurately represent the original argument being addressed." It has a very specific meaning in a specialized field of study, which is the very essence of jargon rather than slang.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 10:07:33 [Permalink]
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Well said, Tergiversant. The problem (as I see it) is that there seems to be very little logic involved in dating - even for the "skeptical" dater. For example:
I have a date next weekend with a man I met recently. We were talking on the telephone last night, and lamenting our dull social lives. I mentioned a girlfriend of mine who is tall, thin and beautiful, but cannot seem to maintain a relationship with a man no matter how hard she tries. My future date asked, "Is she too easy?" Later in the same conversation he told me about a woman he dated "a couple of times" that he stopped seeing because she wouldn't "give it up".
I ask you, where is the logic in that? I am strongly tempted to cancel our date on the grounds that I am too confused to go.
Wendy Jones |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 10:18:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
My future date asked, "Is she too easy?" Later in the same conversation he told me about a woman he dated "a couple of times" that he stopped seeing because she wouldn't "give it up".
Ouch. These statements were not thought out too well 
It's amazing the expectations some people have when dating. A lot of people have this timeline of when and how things should happen that is almost always out of sync with the way things do.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 10:44:15 [Permalink]
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Nice segue back to topic, Wendy. I don't claim to understanding dating behavior either, but in my somewhat limited experience men enjoy flings with promiscuous women, but are more readily drawn into long-term relationships with those that play "hard to get." It's like that old aphorism about men wanting to date loose women but marry nice girls. This makes a certain sort of sense to me.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Kristin
Skeptic Friend
Canada
84 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 12:31:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have a date next weekend with a man I met recently. We were talking on the telephone last night, and lamenting our dull social lives. I mentioned a girlfriend of mine who is tall, thin and beautiful, but cannot seem to maintain a relationship with a man no matter how hard she tries. My future date asked, "Is she too easy?"
The funny thing is.. my first question would have been 'is she a dull person' or 'is she shallow'. Not because she's good looking (though I already hate her from the desc ) but because that, I think, is what can cause a new relationship to go stale. Of course, lack of sex does too. So does too much sex, IMHO (when there's nothing else.)
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Later in the same conversation he told me about a woman he dated "a couple of times" that he stopped seeing because she wouldn't "give it up".
You're a big girl and don't need my advice (who does) but that statement sounds .. vaguely threatening to me. As this is a guy were/are planning on dating. 'If you don't fuck me in X days, we don't have a future.' Huh? Of course, that statement may be taken entirely out of context here.
Disclaimer: anyone can seem dull to a person who does not share the same interests as they do.
Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 15:31:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's amazing the expectations some people have when dating. A lot of people have this timeline of when and how things should happen that is almost always out of sync with the way things do.
@tomic
Good comment @.
Whatever happened to John and Paul, 'Let It Be'?
I think women do this more then men but why does everything have to be put in a category? If someone doesn't fit into a mold of what is expected they are discarded? One contradictory comment and out he goes? Did you ask why he said that. Why does each date have to be a potencial mate or life long friend? Meeting or dating someone if even only once is an experience in itself, why make more of it then it is.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 15:43:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
The word strawman is widely accepted to mean "an parody argument which does not accurately represent the original argument being addressed." It has a very specific meaning in a specialized field of study, which is the very essence of jargon rather than slang
I disagree, not with your definition, I don't know how correct that is, but with your statement that it's not slang, or whatever you want to call it.
You tend to sound like a pseudo intellectual and are very wordy. Thank you but I don't think I'll be reading many of your post. So go ahead and use whatever words you want.
nlm
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 01:55:08 [Permalink]
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Snake, as a man who has relationships with men, it's probably difficult for you to grok (there's some slang for you) the thin line a woman walks between being a fun date and being a fun date. It's maddening. I look for signals, and when they're mixed I go to the ladies room and bang my head against the mirror.
Thank you all for your insight. I just met the guy, so I'm going to keep an open mind. Besides, he's cute.
Wendy Jones |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 09:38:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
You tend to sound like a pseudo intellectual and are very wordy. Thank you but I don't think I'll be reading many of your post. So go ahead and use whatever words you want.
I wonder how it is that you can discern the difference between genuine intellectuals and the false ones? (I would say 'pseudo' but it sounds like slang to me...)
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/08/2001 09:41:56 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 20:18:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have a date next weekend with a man I met recently. We were talking on the telephone last night, and lamenting our dull social lives. I mentioned a girlfriend of mine who is tall, thin and beautiful, but cannot seem to maintain a relationship with a man no matter how hard she tries. My future date asked, "Is she too easy?" Later in the same conversation he told me about a woman he dated "a couple of times" that he stopped seeing because she wouldn't "give it up".
I ask you, where is the logic in that? I am strongly tempted to cancel our date on the grounds that I am too confused to go.
Wendy Jones
I'm wondering why you are confused?
Unless you are not going into details of your conversation, you said he asked. Then you said he stated. Asking a question is not the same as giving an opinion. Is it that you didn't like the way he asked or that he asked at all?
I don't see anything illlogical in asking about a situation and then saying what one did.
Maybe if you went on the date it would be nice in that you'd have that to talk about. You could learn instead of overlooking an opportunity to gain insight.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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