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nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
 Posted - 11/05/2003 : 17:40:02
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Hi folks. I'm new here, so don't hurt me just yet.
Anyway, have any of you found a way to fight the prolifiration of these types of snake oil salesman. I thought my area was free from most of this crap. Then one day at the library, I found a pamphlet advertising acupuncture, reki and even colon irrigation therapy. Gag!
You know how folks are always asking what is the harm in believing these treatments. Well, one week I sat down and wrote e-mails to five homeopathic practitioners advertising in the pamphlet.
Each e-mail contained a different set of symptoms. The e-mails asked what specific treatments I needed to treat the symptoms. Let me add, each set of symptoms was consistent with a medical emergency, all of them life threatening, and all of them recognizable as such to most non-medical personel.
Four of the five replies I received went into varying amounts of detail as to what would effect a cure. Only one of the five respondants mentioned modern medicine, and asked if I might be better off seeing an M.D. before persuing his treatments.
Had a believer in this crap taken the route I had, he or she would be dead now.
I'd like to fight these people in my area but don't know how. Any ideas?
Tony
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Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2003 : 18:28:24 [Permalink]
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Welcome 
I'm not sure how to combat the creeping acceptance of alternative medicine. I know educated, otherwise critical-thinking people who take things like shark cartilege and genuinely believe the stuff works.
I've also noticed that many who embrace alternative medicine also have a bias against traditional medicine ('those crooked doctors are only in it for the money', 'medicine isn't NATURAL', etc.) They remind me of the self-proclaimed independents on the political spectrum; it's as if being anti-establishment is a badge of honor to them.
Education might help some, but once someone is convinced that X treatment 'works'...what can ya do? |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2003 : 20:57:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by nfidel 42
Let me add, each set of symptoms was consistent with a medical emergency, all of them life threatening, and all of them recognizable as such to most non-medical personel.
Wondering how someone in the middle of such an emergency would even have time to log onto the computer, compose an email and WAIT for a responce?
I think I understand your point but it's easy to ridicule something so extreme. |
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nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2003 : 23:15:41 [Permalink]
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Maybe emergency was too strong a word. Maybe not. Life threatening, sure.
Many people have symptoms of heart attack, stroke and other health emergencies which they endure for several hours, indeed, several days.
If I call an MD and tell him I have tingling in my hand, shooting pains in my arm and am short of breath, I'm sure he'll tell me he'll meet me at the emergency room. Probably you'd advise the same. I really don't think an intelligent person would advise me to have my colon cleansed along with a little acupuncture on the side. This is what I was advised from the CAM practitioners. |
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 04:02:18 [Permalink]
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| Try the discussion list at http://www.quackwatch.org/ |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 04:43:50 [Permalink]
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A Last! The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything is among us!
Greetings, 42. 
There is only one way to put the practitioners of bullshit on the poverty rolls and that is to drasticly reduce the ranks of the gullible. Many, such as James Randi, are trying to do just that, but I fear there's been little success. To quote P.T. Barnham, "There's a sucker born every minute."
Indeed.
The pathetic part of it all is that, at least in these cases, stupidity actually is painful, often physically as well as financly, but they keep coming back for more (the sign and symptom of a well-run grift). The really sad part is that these people are not necessarly stupid; merely have a sort of blind spot where gobbletygook is concerned. You can also see it in religious fundelmentalists.
So, how does one stamp out gullibility? Apart from a little unaceptable mass murder, that is. I'll damned if I know. I'm beginning to wonder if there is such a thing as a gene that triggers an idiot reflex at the appearence of such as Benny Hinn.
Anyhow, wlecome to SFN. Glad to see ya here
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 14:03:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
A Last! The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything is among us!
Greetings, 42.
Greetings fellow hitchhiker!
You must be a psychic. You scored a hit with Randi, I admire him and his quest. You scored a hit with Benny Hinn, I think I despise him as much as I admire Mr. Randi. Way off with the Barnum reference, as I hate circuses.
Thanks for the input and welcome, folks.
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Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
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nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 14:04:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Try the discussion list at http://www.quackwatch.org/
Thanks for the link Gorgo. I've read much at the website but haven't tried the discussion list yet. |
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 20:43:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
nfidel 42:
I'd like to fight these people in my area but don't know how. Any ideas?
Did you keep the e-mails? I would love to see them. Maybe we could post them on our site.
Anyhow, I talk to anyone who will listen to me on the subject of skepticism and critical thinking. I make a point of telling people who are taking or considering taking a homeopathic what the problems are with that sort of "medication." I called into a radio show, and made it on the air, to offer a skeptical view on ear candling. I write letters to my representatives about repealing the Food Supplement Act of 1994. Plus, we get a lot of lurkers on this site. People who never considered these things before and are now skeptics. We may be spitting into a hurricane but we have brought some people over. Whatever you do is worth the time it takes to do it...
Welcome to SFN |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 20:59:53 [Permalink]
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Just an aside, Kil: it's the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994. The DSHEA.
I just recently read the FDA guidelines generated by the DSHEA, and they're actually pretty danged reasonable. You can say, for example, "people need calcium to build strong bones," but you can't say, "people need calcium to prevent cancer."
The biggest problem is that the FDA is underfunded and understaffed to police all the labeling that's gone on in the last nine years. But, from what I've read, there are a couple of bills going through Congress right now which attempt to deal with the problem - from different angles, of course. One attempts to basically overrule the DSHEA, and the other attempts to finally give the FDA the funds it needs to enforce the DSHEA. I'll look into these some more, and start a new thread.
Sorry for hijacking yours, nfidel 42. By the way, do you know where the pamphlet you mentioned comes from, as in a street address (don't post it, I'm just curious if you know)? I'm wondering if any skeptics groups have ever picketed a "holistic" clinic. I could see a bunch of people walking around carrying signs saying "HOMEOPATHY IS WATER" and suchlike. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 21:49:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
DaveW:
Just an aside, Kil : it's the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994. The DSHEA.
I know. I was using the popular nickname... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 22:33:56 [Permalink]
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| Ah. You know, I've read so much about it from critical and government sources that I didn't even know it had a "popular nickname." :) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 00:53:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by nfidel 42
Maybe emergency was too strong a word. Maybe not. Life threatening, sure.
Many people have symptoms of heart attack, stroke and other health emergencies which they endure for several hours, indeed, several days.
Oh, ok, didn't think of that. Emergency, from one who lives in a big city with idiots who call 911 for a hang nail or to ask directions to city hall, means blood pouring out all over the place and the possibility of dying in minutes from a gun shot. In that case I wouldn't think someone would stop to find a holistic treatment.
quote:
If I call an MD and tell him I have tingling in my hand, shooting pains in my arm and am short of breath, I'm sure he'll tell me he'll meet me at the emergency room.
However, also from my expierence, I don't think doctors would be so quick to say run right over to the ER either. Ok, before you say something.....yeah! They might for that, but they are no heros in my book when it comes to helping people get well in other situations.
Which might be a better argument as to why people are turning to alturnitives. |
| Edited by - Snake on 11/07/2003 00:55:57 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 03:56:46 [Permalink]
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The alternetive treatment discussion is contentious, and this is as it should be. I have read, I think on Randi's site as well as eleswhere (long time ago -- no references, sorry), where some (many?) people have had serious reactions from taking 'herbal' cures in combination with prescription medications. And there is very little regulation on these substances (except marijuana, a substance that is actually useful).
And every now and then, I read of someone, usually a child, dying due to it's parents refusing to allow modern medicine to treat it. Rather, they pray and/or hold escoteric ceremonies until the kid dies. The idiot gene in action!
My own pet peeve is chiropractors:
"If it looks like a duck,
And walks like a duck,
And there's duck-doo your pickup truck,
You can bet your bottom buck,
It ain't an armadillo!"
QUACK!!
Orthopedicly speaking, I'm a walking (limping & staggering, actually) mess. I've looked into their manipulations of the spine, and there's no way some barely-trained amature is going to get at mine.
To my shock and horrer, I've found the VA is now using some chrioprators as primary care personell -- been some time since I've read about this as well, and one hopes that they've come to their senses. Happily, I have seen none at the VA hospital I go to.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 08:43:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
My own pet peeve is chiropractors:
I actually got help from one...
After staying a few days at a friends house I had a sore back and was stiff in my neck. After 15 minutes of massage and twisting (and some pretty scary sounds coming from my back and neck) I felt like a new person. All tesion releaved, and felt several inches taller. My girlfriend was about to leave the room crying when she heard the cracks and pops from my back, thinking I'd never walk out of there.
Anyway, the treatment did the job well. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 09:39:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
DaveW:
One attempts to basically overrule the DSHEA, and the other attempts to finally give the FDA the funds it needs to enforce the DSHEA. I'll look into these some more, and start a new thread.
A new thread to discuss the DSHEA is a good idea. As you might have guessed, I have a few thoughts on the subject... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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