|
|
|
Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2003 : 09:46:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by nfidel 42
Hi folks. I'm new here, so don't hurt me just yet.
Aaah. Well ok then :) And welcome!
quote:
I'd like to fight these people in my area but don't know how. Any ideas?
Tony
A difficult question, one with which i've been struggling... Education is, of course, the best "medicine" for that dangerous brain virus known as gullibility. We could preach to the masses about the wonders of rational thinking, but i dont think it would work with everyone... And preaching annoys me to no end.
Here's a few more practical ideas:
1: Write an honest and concerned letter to these people, let them know how potentially dangerous their practices are. Dont call them crooks; play it cool, do your "concerned citizen" bit. Dont make it too obvious that you're a skeptic, it turns many people off :)
Send copies of this letter to local news papers, actual MDs living in your area, radio and tv channels, maybe even your local authority, etc...
2: Try to convince your library to remove the pamphlets, or...
3: Make your own "counter-pamphlet" and ask if you can put your's next to their's
Get the ball rolling, make people aware, make them think, and who knows? You might actually save a few lives!!!  Something that those quacks have yet to achive...
|
Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
 |
|
|
nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 22:17:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Did you keep the e-mails? I would love to see them. Maybe we could post them on our site.
Yeah, Kil. I kept the e-mails. I'll try to organize them when I get time. Maybe then I'll post them for the fun of it. |
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 22:27:47 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Sorry for hijacking yours, nfidel 42. By the way, do you know where the pamphlet you mentioned comes from, as in a street address (don't post it, I'm just curious if you know)? I'm wondering if any skeptics groups have ever picketed a "holistic" clinic. I could see a bunch of people walking around carrying signs saying "HOMEOPATHY IS WATER" and suchlike.
Evidently the pamphlet is published by a group of CAM practitioners. It's a very well made piece of work. I don't think the organization has a physical location. Here's a link to their website, which resembles the pamphlet. http://artofwellbeing.com/index.html
Man, they had their convention last weekend. I had thought about going. Guess not. I didn't want to pay these wackos eight bucks anyway. I might go to the next one if I can come up with something useful to do. |
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 22:37:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maglev
Here's a few more practical ideas:
1: Write an honest and concerned letter to these people, let them know how potentially dangerous their practices are. Dont call them crooks; play it cool, do your "concerned citizen" bit. Dont make it too obvious that you're a skeptic, it turns many people off :)
Send copies of this letter to local news papers, actual MDs living in your area, radio and tv channels, maybe even your local authority, etc...
2: Try to convince your library to remove the pamphlets, or...
3: Make your own "counter-pamphlet" and ask if you can put your's next to their's
Get the ball rolling, make people aware, make them think, and who knows? You might actually save a few lives!!! Something that those quacks have yet to achive...
All of that stuff is sooo hard to do. But seriously,I have contacted a few folks, by phone and e-mail. I had a good conversation with my state's Vice President of Community Colleges.
I don't know how I feel about the idea of having the pamphlet's removed. Seems too much like censorship. |
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2003 : 00:00:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by nfidel 42
Here's a link to their website, which resembles the pamphlet. http://artofwellbeing.com/index.html
It's not all bad. Below are 3 classes I saw on that website, I don't see anything harmful in them. In fact there is some benefit.
Ok the wording in the animal class could have left out the spiritually part but the main idea of being more in tune with our fellow creatures is wonderful.
And I for one should learn to be less cluttered in my work space, although I couldn't afford to pay to find out how not to be.
BTW, the prices are not too bad either, you should see how much the local community college charges for weekend workshops. Not unlike learning to play the drums.
CONSCIOUS RHYTHMS DRUM CLASS
EarthStar Series: 7:00pm - 8:30pm: Bring your African-Cuban drum and percussion "toys" and join us for this four-part drum class where we will focus on and practice hand techniques/patterns/rudiments, rhythm pulses, a specific African rhythm, solos and other fun exercises. There will be "homework" and instructional handout materials. Only $15/person/class or $54 for the entire series if total paid up-front. Need a drum? Let us know.
November 10
Creating the Ideal Workspace
During this 2-hour workshop, you will learn the basics, assess your current workspace, and create a plan for boosting both creativity and work focus. Time: 7:00 - 9:00 pm Cost: $35.00 Place: The Trinity Wholeness Center - 200 North Main Street - Graham, North Carolina.
November 15
Communicating With Animals and All Species
Relate to animals and all species as spiritual beings. Access your intuitive ability to communicate spiritually. Enrich your journey as you open to guidance from the animal kingdom. Presented by Mary Lemons, Reiki Master, Certified Healing Touch Practitioner, and animal communicator, and sponsored by Stillpoint Center for Integrative Therapies, this class will be held at 3410 Healy Dr., Winston-Salem, on Saturday, November 15. Time and fee TBA. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2003 : 03:39:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
My own pet peeve is chiropractors:
I actually got help from one...
After staying a few days at a friends house I had a sore back and was stiff in my neck. After 15 minutes of massage and twisting (and some pretty scary sounds coming from my back and neck) I felt like a new person. All tesion releaved, and felt several inches taller. My girlfriend was about to leave the room crying when she heard the cracks and pops from my back, thinking I'd never walk out of there.
Anyway, the treatment did the job well.
Glad that it was successful for you. Also glad that you weren't hurt.
I got into this sort of discussion a couple or three years ago and found a couple of sites that described some fairly serious neck injuries inflicted by chiropractors. I went looking for them yesterday, but couldn't find them. Intead, I found endless ads for chiropratic clinics. If I were a conspiricy theroist.......
But here's a couple of sites that pretty much give a Fair and Balanced (Up yours, Rupert!) view of it.
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/21/09/23.html
http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/paranormal/bldef_chiropractic.htm
Apologies for the minor hijack.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
|
|
Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 09:35:47 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maglev
Here's a few more practical ideas:
quote:
I don't know how I feel about the idea of having the pamphlet's removed. Seems too much like censorship.
Yeah, you're right :) I do feel it's somewhat irresponsible of a library to display such things, but at the same time, i known that many folks do/want to beleive in alt meds... I've never felt comfortable attacking people's beleifs, certainly not by censoring stuff. Discussing, questionning and giving information is more my thing. I should never write on a friday night :)
But speaking of pamphlets... How about a Skeptics Friends Network pamphlet? :) Something we could put up on this site, that people could download and print. I dont mean one pertaining to alt meds, but one inviting people to come by this site and have a look. I'm sure there's many closet skeptics who would love to see that they are not alone with their doubts... Would be a fun thing to do at any rate; you know, like having our own Miss Cleo pic, psychadelic colors and fonts, words like "vibration", "energy"... Hmm, maybe I should never write on sunday mornings either :)
|
Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
| Edited by - Maglev on 11/09/2003 09:37:35 |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 00:39:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I would never let a chiropractor touch me. Sudden rotation of the neck can cause a stroke. The vertebral or carotid arteries can tear.
But.....if that could or does happen wouldn't there be some sort of government restrictions? Wouldn't we have heard of reports or law suits about it? Wouldn't the schools be teaching the proper way to do whatever it is they do so as not to cause harm?
quote:
Anecdotally, I know a woman who sued her chiropractor for giving her a stroke. She was in her 30s at the time. She won the lawsuit.
There is evidence, though, that chiropractic can help with lower back pain. I met one of the researchers in these studies after a talk; he's the real deal.
My own expierences has been for the most part good when going to chiropractors. In fact the last time I went, a few years ago it was to a college for chiropractors, in order to get a discount because students work on you. Although, from an accident many years ago I do have a 'bad' back, the doctor also treated me for arthritis. I must have mentioned I have it or that I was having pain in my hands. Anyway, she put my hands in hot wax. Something I'd never heard or thought of before. Boy! Did it feel good and relieved the pain. Then couple of years after that, I started seeing in department stores, hot wax 'warmer uppers'. If things like that were so bad or dangerous why haven't we heard of them being taken off the market or of accidents happening.
I know you are trying to show that some people are just taking money for nothing and people should be aware. But it seems that you are being negative and putting everything in one big evil pot.
I think there are some benifits and it's up to consumers to make and have choices. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 04:07:10 [Permalink]
|
Snake, 'hot wax' (paraphin, actually) has been used by physical therapists since at least the '40s. I myself have had it after a badly broken hand, years ago. I haven't seen it used recently though, at least not at the VA. It certainly does feel good, doesn't it?
I think that most chiropractors and other alternant treatment types actually believe that they are providing a valuable service. Most dowsers are also firm believers in what they do.
There have been lawsuits over injuries, but not very many that I've heard of. They tend overshadowed by medical malpratice suits where some careless surgeon has left a hacksaw or something inside a patient. I think the reason is that these complaints recieve little attention because they rarely involve heavy dollars. And, there is the 'Believer Symdrom': "Oh yeah, it hurts, but no pain, no gain, eh? My guy's got it together!"
I think that the same benefits can be had from a good, competent massuse, even one of the legal ones, at a much lower cost and virtually no risk of an injury, unless you get drunk and fall off the table.
Ancedote (and therefore worthless as evidence): A brother in my motorcycle club had been visiting a chiropractor twice a month for several years for back pain (against the advice and to the amusment of virtually all of the membership). Nothing extraordinary has happened to him one way or another except that he's laid out Gitchi-Gummi knows how much money on it. Last year, he lost his job and was too broke to continue the treatments, which even involved xrays now and then. He's back working now, in a different field for fewer dollars, and has yet to return to the chiropractor. He seems no different -- doesn't bitch any more than he used to when he was being treated, anyway. I think I'll ask him about it.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 06:26:45 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maglev
quote:
Originally posted by Maglev
Here's a few more practical ideas:
But speaking of pamphlets... How about a Skeptics Friends Network pamphlet? :) Something we could put up on this site, that people could download and print. I dont mean one pertaining to alt meds, but one inviting people to come by this site and have a look. I'm sure there's many closet skeptics who would love to see that they are not alone with their doubts... Would be a fun thing to do at any rate; you know, like having our own Miss Cleo pic, psychadelic colors and fonts, words like "vibration", "energy"... Hmm, maybe I should never write on sunday mornings either :)
That's a great idea. I've actually looked for something like this on the net, but as yet haven't found anything. Until I do, I think I'm going to begin leaving behind my old copies of Skeptical Enquirer, the Skeptic and Free Thought Today when I visit the doctor or dentist office. |
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 12:47:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Snake, 'hot wax' (paraphin, actually) has been used by physical therapists since at least the '40s. I myself have had it after a badly broken hand, years ago. I haven't seen it used recently though, at least not at the VA. It certainly does feel good, doesn't it?
I think that most chiropractors and other alternant treatment types actually believe that they are providing a valuable service. Most dowsers are also firm believers in what they do.
There have been lawsuits over injuries, but not very many that I've heard of. They tend overshadowed by medical malpratice suits where some careless surgeon has left a hacksaw or something inside a patient. I think the reason is that these complaints recieve little attention because they rarely involve heavy dollars. And, there is the 'Believer Symdrom': "Oh yeah, it hurts, but no pain, no gain, eh? My guy's got it together!"
I have no doubt it's been around. Years after breaking my back I also broke my wrist, and when I was diagnosted with arthitus, so why after so many chances to be informed of various treatments, 'real' doctors didn't help? How come after all those years of seeing 'real' doctors, it took a quack chiropractor to recomemed it?
quote:
I think that the same benefits can be had from a good, competent massuse, even one of the legal ones, at a much lower cost and virtually no risk of an injury, unless you get drunk and fall off the table.
They don't study the same information about the body as in depth. I don't think they could find medical conditions that might need attention. Yes, I do believe an honest and compatent chiropractor will send a person to a medical doctor if they find something out of their expertieze.
quote:
Ancedote (and therefore worthless as evidence):
Agree.
quote:
A brother in my motorcycle club had been visiting a chiropractor twice a month for several years for back pain (against the advice and to the amusment of virtually all of the membership). Nothing extraordinary has happened to him one way or another except that he's laid out Gitchi-Gummi knows how much money on it. Last year, he lost his job and was too broke to continue the treatments, which even involved xrays now and then. He's back working now, in a different field for fewer dollars, and has yet to return to the chiropractor. He seems no different -- doesn't bitch any more than he used to when he was being treated, anyway. I think I'll ask him about it.
Yes, please do.
I do believe that medical doctors are not so wonderful either and going to one is not always the best way to recieve good medical care either. There are examples, mine and people I know, stories I hear in the news but as we've said they are only ancedotel. So all I can do is go by my own expierence and I don't trust medical doctors one bit, about as much as some here don't like alturnitive medicine.
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
