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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2003 : 09:27:19 [Permalink]
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First, I'd like to thank all the posters here for their reasonable and thoughtful responses to my comments. You wouldn't believe some of the vitriol and venom I've endured in other venues over this matter. You'd think I and other Nader supporters were in league with the Antichrist!  Needless to say, we're feeling a bit besieged right now.
Despite the fact that I currently see the two major parties as little more than two heads on the same ugly monster, I actually haven't completely given up hope in the Democrats yet. I believe there's a chance they can be convinced to embrace the cause of political reform. But it's going to take some steadfast - and perhaps stubborn - persuasion from those of us who believe in the cause.
Dave, I agree that the best way to achieve reform is to work WITHIN the two major parties, and I have hope there are those within those organizations who are attempting to do so as we speak. But they're not going to have any significant success until the party as a whole - or the public, to address Renae's comments - can be convinced that it's important enough. Which is why we must continue to have these discussions, and keep spreading the word.
Renae, only time will tell whether it's you or I who's correct about the effectiveness of third party votes. You insist that the major parties will never be convinced by a few percentage points, and I hope you're wrong. The historical evolution of our nation's political parties suggests to me that, over the long term, the major parties are more receptive to independent and third party ideas than you believe.
But, as I said, only time will tell.
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p.s. Thanks for the kind words, Snake. I gave the Libertarian Party a good examination in 2000, but overall, I was disappointed. While I share their desire to limit the role of government, I feel they take the principle much too far. Contrary to folks like Harry Browne, I believe government can play a substantial role in making life better and fairer for everyone without being too intrusive.
I actually don't wholly support any particular political party. I've searched and searched through resources, such as the excellent database at Politics1, and have yet to find any platform with which I totally agree. But I guess that's to be expected. Until I do find the perfect match, I'll continue to base my support on particular issues and particular candidates, regardless of what party they belong to.
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Paladin |
| Edited by - Paladin on 11/09/2003 09:29:26 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 12:12:54 [Permalink]
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First of all, you must understand, I do not consider Bush to be a garden variety asshole. He is trashing the constitution. Due process is in serious jeopardy if not out the window for many. The Homeland Security Act with Patriot 1 and 2 has introduced a whole new level of bureaucracy while jeopardizing our basic freedoms. He has heaped on us lies upon lies to further the imperialistic goals of "his" few men, is the foreign policy he pursues. He is trying to make our country a theocracy. He pursues a policy of trickle down economics that has already been shown to be wanting, to say the least. Spending is soaring through the roof while he is giving tax breaks to his friends. He is an enemy to the environment. He has, by presidential order, made laws that interfere with basic scientific research. The list goes on. In my view, he is a monster. He is the most dangerous president we have had in my lifetime.
So, while wanting him out by any means may be a short term goal, I see it as an imperative!
That Paladin and Gorgo cannot see how Bush differs from the usual asshole that sits in the oval office boggles my mind. What is it I'm seeing that you're not?
I understand the importance of third party candidates. I have been in the Peace and Freedom Party, Students for a Democratic Society, and have voted independently from time to time. But this will not be one of those times.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Edited to add this:
quote:
Paladin:
First, I'd like to thank all the posters here for their reasonable and thoughtful responses to my comments. You wouldn't believe some of the vitriol and venom I've endured in other venues over this matter. You'd think I and other Nader supporters were in league with the Antichrist! Needless to say, we're feeling a bit besieged right now.
I wrote the above part of this post before I saw this. Yes, thanks for noticing that at SFN our posters, for the most part, do not engage in flame wars. We are very happy with the thoughtful level of debate that goes on here. I have heard gruesome story's about other boards. As an administrator here, I don't get out much and have been spared most of those goings on. In short, your welcome. I hope you make SFN your home... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 12:33:28 [Permalink]
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All Bush has done has been done with the help of Democrats. If you think a Democrat would have acted differently after 9/11, you're wrong. They are all the same. That's why it is more important to change the system than to change Presidents. If you don't elect a president that will change the system, you might as well just vote for Bush.
Kucinich is a right-wing Democrat, and that's as far right as I'm going to go. If you think I would have voted for Gore if I hadn't voted for Nader, you're wrong. I would have voted Socialist in order to vote for a Democrat. If more people would vote the way they think instead of voting the way they're told to think (e.g., the "liberal" press tells you that before the Primaries have even started, Kucinich has no chance so you'd better vote for Republicans like Dean or Clark) then we'd be talking about re-electing Nader.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 11/09/2003 12:34:36 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 12:54:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
All Bush has done has been done with the help of Democrats. If you think a Democrat would have acted differently after 9/11, you're wrong.
So, once again you see our actions in Afghanistan and our preemptive attack on Iraq as the same thing. They are not. What is ironic is that you lump those actions together the same way Bush does. Only with a different spin.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 14:37:00 [Permalink]
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| Of course, they are both crimes against humanity. That has nothing to do with what I said. Bush has done what he did with the help of the Democrats. If you think the Democrats would have acted differently than Bush did after 9/11, you're wrong. They would, and do, see it as an opportunity to increase U.S. power in the world. Bush does not act alone. Only now are some of the Democrats changing their spots and saying that Bush's crimes are a "grave mistake." Even Kucinich, who has always opposed these crimes, has not called Bush a criminal. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 15:00:00 [Permalink]
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One thing to consider is that an incredible majority of Americans, myself included, were all for action in Afghanistan. All politicians represent their constituents and often have the same views as these constituents. Iraq was another matter altogether and Democrats didn't seem to get it. When they needed to show some backbone, they didn't. When they needed to represent their constituents, they didn't. I have a hard time forgiving that.
I also hate the trend of Democrats going too far to the middle. It worked for Clinton but I think the time has come to move the party further to the left and that happens because people like Gordo and paladin begin to look to other parties. The rank and file Democrats hate this, of course, but it's when so many are abandoning the party that gives the party the motivation to attempt to get these people back.
That is exactly where Dean got it wrong and he lost my support. He claims to be from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party but when he suggests reaching out to guys in trucks flying the Confederate flag he shows how full of it he is. He needed to say he should reach out to guys like Gordo. That would support being a Democrat. That's where I think the Democratic party needs to go to still be a liberal party.
But that's just me.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 15:45:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Of course, they are both crimes against humanity.
Yup, that's what Bush said.
quote:
Gorgo:
That has nothing to do with what I said. Bush has done what he did with the help of the Democrats. If you think the Democrats would have acted differently than Bush did after 9/11, you're wrong. They would, and do, see it as an opportunity to increase U.S. power in the world. Bush does not act alone. Only now are some of the Democrats changing their spots and saying that Bush's crimes are a "grave mistake." Even Kucinich, who has always opposed these crimes, has not called Bush a criminal.
Carter, Clinton and Gore were all actively stumping against the invasion of Iraq. Carter called it what it was, "Pax Americana." Congress was lied to by the Bush administration. Many of the Democrats you now say would have done the same thing said that they voted the way they did very reluctantly. But at the time, the information that they were being given by the administration showed Iraq to be a danger to us and to it's neighbors. You cynically say that they are changing their spots. It just can't be otherwise can it? Find me one democrat who has endorsed the doctrine of Pax Americana, as you have suggested, as Cheny, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush, George Bush and Perle have done.
To admit that this was a neo conservative hoodwink job doesn't really fit your world view. By the way, there were 23 nay votes in the senate on the resolution to invade Iraq. 20 of those votes were by Democrats. Two of the votes were Republican. The Democrats were split. The Republicans were not.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 20:19:15 [Permalink]
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Democrats don't like the way Bush did it, they don't think he is sending enough troops, they think they should have attacked Iraq, but should have bribed and coerced some kind of UN approval like Bush I did, but most supported it and most very much supported "Pax Americana." That was Clinton's foreign policy. Never heard of NAFTA? Never heard of Clinton's sanctioning and bombing how many countries?
No difference. At least Bush is proud to tell the world he cares nothing about the law. Clinton talked a good game, but he was just as much of a criminal. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2003 : 20:23:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
At least Bush is proud to tell the world he cares nothing about the law. Clinton talked a good game, but he was just as much of a criminal.
Whatever. Sigh... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 04:31:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Whatever. Sigh...
Yeah. Whatever. Sigh. Wonderful. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 04:59:20 [Permalink]
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Me, I'd have gone after the Taliban the day they started demolishing those two, magnificent statues of Budda. That's probably a good reason why I should never be given great authority.
On the other hand, I'd have never given the assholes $43,000,000 to essentially wine and dine bin Laden.
I agree with Afganistan, although I think it could have been handled a lot better. I also believe that the job should have been finished there before going off on another adventure, even a righteous one, which Iraq ain't.
There is the thought that if Gore and the Dems have been allowed to take office (Up yours Soopreme Court majority, you treasonous bastards!), 9/11 might not have happened. The previous administration was at least paying attention; the current one was too busy ripping off the treasury (with Democrat assistance) and was not.
There is the further thought that this adminstration knew it was coming and sat on their hands, letting it happen. But I'll not go there. I've heard retoric, but haven't seen any evidence.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 06:21:56 [Permalink]
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| Afghanistan was a criminal act that cost thousands or more deaths for nothing except blind revenge. Did nothing to increase the peace of the world, and like the 13-year U.S. war against Iraq, probably only increased the level of violence in the world. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 07:25:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Afghanistan was a criminal act that cost thousands or more deaths for nothing except blind revenge. Did nothing to increase the peace of the world, and like the 13-year U.S. war against Iraq, probably only increased the level of violence in the world.
I agree, at least to a point. As I said, Afganstan could have been handled a lot better. I think that we could have had bin Laden's head on a stake without destroying an entire country; an impovreshed, little country that is almost literaly the red-headed stepchild of the Mid-East.
Well, we wrecked it far worse than the Soviets did, and still no Osama. And we now have Iraq as an encore, and still no Saddam and his Weapons of Mass Deception. What now?
I am beginning to entertain the thought that we might end up bugging out of the ME in much the same way we left 'Nam. After, of course, the body counts reach a high enough level that even the chickenhawks get disgusted with it. Ugly thoughts, yes.
I've been hearing and reading mutterings about reactivating the Slective Service. I think that if it happens, it won't be until after the '04 elections. Anyone else hearing anything about that?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 07:59:14 [Permalink]
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| It's easy for me to say that it could have gone better, I know, but they knew they were risking millions of lives. They know they killed many more than died on 9/11, but it's okay because they're not white Christians, I suppose. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2003 : 08:57:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's easy for me to say that it could have gone better, I know, but they knew they were risking millions of lives. They know they killed many more than died on 9/11, but it's okay because they're not white Christians, I suppose.
Ah, and now we get down to the gritty, ol' nitty.
Question: Remembering that there were no atheists, nor even agnostics, hijacking airplanes on 9/11, and bearing in mind that the hijackers were to a man fundamentalists as was/is the lunatic(s) who sent them, is this 'war' indeed, turning into something of a jihad on both sides? I hesitate to say, but it ain't lookin' real good and hasn't from the git-go.
Say, whatever became of Franklin Graham's threatened Iraqi crusade, passing out groceries, pamphlets, and the Wit & Wisdom of Jack Chick, winning hearts, minds, and intestinal tracts for Jesus?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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