|
|
|
PruplePanther
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
 Posted - 11/12/2003 : 12:31:09
|
Got this email. I'm posting it for the beloved Sea Sorbust. It STINKS of the lowest political hells of Bribery and Corruption.quote:
It is time to take action and write the President!
The future of the United States space program
is at stake. Its human spaceflight program is grounded,
and the purposes that it serves are being questioned --
by Congress, by the media, and by the general public.
The Bush Administration is now conducting a high-level
review of U.S. space policy with the goal of issuing a
Presidential Directive, perhaps in a few weeks.
It may set the course for human spaceflight -- and
all space exploration -- for a generation.
This is the time - perhaps the only time for the
foreseeable future - to influence U.S. space policy
and the course of space exploration. We urge our
members and all those who care about our future
in space to write the President now.
You can write the president at:
http://planetary.org/action/president_email.html
As members of The Planetary Society, and as visitors
to our web site, you are familiar with our position.
You can read about it in the statements delivered by
the Society's Chairman of the Board, Bruce Murray,
and Society President, Wesley T. Huntress, Jr. to
the House Science Committee. They urged that
America's human space flight program be drastically
revised, and retargeted at human exploration beyond Earth
orbit -- with the ultimate goal of establishing a human
outpost on Mars. The current shuttle-focused program
has shackled us to Earth orbit for more than 30 years,
and promises to do so for another two decades.
Even the International Space Station drifts aimlessly.
A program aimed at Mars could change all that by
providing a single unifying goal for human and
robotic space ventures.
We take no position on how to reach the goal of
sending human explorers to Mars. That can be
decided once the goal is established. Important
questions remain to be addressed on whether
a human return to the Moon is a necessary
step or on the role of interim milestones. The Society
advocates a national commitment to a progressive,
well-paced Mars human flight program, that can be
accomplished within realistic funding levels.
This is the simple message we believe must be
conveyed to the President. The U.S. human
spaceflight program should be directed to send
humans to Mars.
Act Now!
http://planetary.org/action/president_email.html
Sincerely,
Louis Friedman
Executive Director
The Planetary Society
maybe should have posted in Astronomy but nobody reads there. would have put it in Conspiracies but can't figure out what "they" are after other than a transfer of the loot into vote-buying programs. SOMETHING stinks tho.
edited to better define the stench
|
"If I don't know where we are, I can't plot a course home." Major Carter, SG-1 |
Edited by - PruplePanther on 11/12/2003 14:50:48
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 07:09:44 [Permalink]
|
What are you all bent out of shape for? Corruption? Bribery? Huh? Sound to me like a little group of people that think interplanetary space exploration is a good idea. The group has every right and obligation to try to further there ideas.
I am a huge supporter of NASA and the space program. However, I do not think sending humans to Mars is a good idea. The cost would be astronomical (pun intended) and with a less than 75% chance of success I think it would be fool hardy.
Keep sending the robots I say. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
 |
|
|
Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 09:21:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by furshur
What are you all bent out of shape for? Corruption? Bribery? Huh? Sound to me like a little group of people that think interplanetary space exploration is a good idea. The group has every right and obligation to try to further there ideas.
I am a huge supporter of NASA and the space program. However, I do not think sending humans to Mars is a good idea. The cost would be astronomical (pun intended) and with a less than 75% chance of success I think it would be fool hardy.
Keep sending the robots I say.
While I thank Pruple Panther for posting this, he is not up to the hack-and-slash that goes with discussions about manned-missions to and the eventual colonization of Mars.
The problem is that of an asteroid impacting on Earth. As little as a hundred years ago an 150m asteroid could hit and maybe not even be noticed. Since then we have both populated almost everywhere and count on everywhere for food production.
Asteroids are hard to find and harder to orbit-chart. While there are governmental asteroid-hunting projects which tout "We can do it!", sizable asteroids and comets are still being found by amateurs.
There is no way to adequately hunt asteroids except from Mars. There is no bigger threat to the United States than a potential impactor. No cost to find and defend against a potential impactor, whether asteroid or air-bursting comet, is too much.
We must go to Mars! Quickly. |
"This is the forest primeval...."  |
|
|
|
walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 11:13:21 [Permalink]
|
Indeed, and we often don't even detect these things until after they've gone past us, because it comes from the direction of the sun. Which means that something could hit us with absolutely no warning at all! 
Scares the bejeezus outta me. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 14:29:00 [Permalink]
|
| Well, an automated ground-based observatory on top of Olympus Mons would certainly provide exellent image quality potential thanks to the atmospheric conditions. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 17:22:33 [Permalink]
|
| Neeeeeeeeeeever gonna happen. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
|
|
Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2003 : 12:55:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by PruplePanther
Got this email...It STINKS of the lowest political hells of Bribery and Corruption.
Oh please! LOL. Louis Friedman, who wrote the letter, was a buddy of the late Carl Sagan. He and Sagan started the "Planetary Society" and it has been around for a long while. They support space exploration. Mostly in favor of unmanned exploration. They're imaginative dreamers who sometimes actually have succeeded in raising support and awareness of up-coming space projects.
There's plenty of "bribery and corruption" to get hot and bothered about without taking it out on scientists and amateur astronomers, (who are members.)
|
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
|
|
|
PruplePanther
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2003 : 12:16:34 [Permalink]
|
No no, Mr. Chippewa. U misunderstand me. See where i wrote "but can't figure out what "they" are after other than a transfer of the loot into vote-buying programs. SOMETHING stinks tho."
I was talking about the people who want to ditch any program that doesn't make them money so they can switch the money to their short-term loot-gathering. They don't care about long-term anything. They only care about short-term. And about THEIR short-term gains. Profits. Campaign contributions.
Look at lbj. Never-minding about long-term problems, he started Medicare just to get enough short-term votes to keep him in office and to keep jfk's vietnam war going.  They even tried the "Thar's OIL in thet there Vetnam" gambit to collect the votes of the guys who wanted low gas prices. And who doesn't. But even that didn't sway the American people to go along with the slaughter of young people, both American and Vietnameese. Short term vote-buying didn't work. lbj bit the dust and humphery bit the dust even though he had the chicago thugs beat up all the war protestors. But nixon got into office and NOTHING CHANGED. The war went on and on and then nixon bit the dust. Followed by the grandson of the Great Pumpkin itself, the Great Plum with Golfclub and then HE bit the dust. Followed by The Great Peanut who gave away both Panama and our Honor in persia and promted a rise in gas prices from 30 cents to $$$$. The HE bit the dust and was followed by The Great Communicator who lulled us all into a deadly and longlasting stupor like a modern Snow White. Compleat with lots of dwarves raking in the loot while we all snoozed like a bunck of Carnation Cows.
And there went the space program. The Great Communicator wernt too smart in science even though he COULD spell "potatoe".  He actually made it to the end followed by the Great SpyMaster then the Great Cuckhold and now look at where we are. The Great Fund Raisor. "Gather the campaign loot from anyone in sight" is the Great Fund Raisor's motto. He may be a fly-boy but he ain't to big on Space. He aint' to big on REAL defense. 'orbust is right. An asteroid strike is a BIG problem but I'd better let her ramble on about that part.  |
"If I don't know where we are, I can't plot a course home." Major Carter, SG-1 |
|
|
|
Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 08:45:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Well, an automated ground-based observatory on top of Olympus Mons would certainly provide exellent image quality potential thanks to the atmospheric conditions.
Would have thought that the dust storms would block out viewing too often, too much. Maybe at that height, though.... |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 09:24:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sea Sorbust
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Well, an automated ground-based observatory on top of Olympus Mons would certainly provide exellent image quality potential thanks to the atmospheric conditions.
quote:
Would have thought that the dust storms would block out viewing too often, too much. Maybe at that height, though....
Hm. Interesting thought.
Question: aproxamatly what is the frenquency of dust storms on Mars, and how long do they last, on average? Also, does the airborn particuate settle out relitivly quickly due to the thin atmosphere?
Whatever, putting the 'scope on a mountain top would certainly be the way to go. I'd love to see it happen, 'though I tend to agree with Vegta that it ain't gonna be on, at least in our lifetimes nor even in the lifetimes of our grandchildren. Pity.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 12:58:52 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Hm. Interesting thought.
Question: aproxamatly what is the frenquency of dust storms on Mars, and how long do they last, on average? Also, does the airborn particuate settle out relitivly quickly due to the thin atmosphere?
Whatever, putting the 'scope on a mountain top would certainly be the way to go. I'd love to see it happen, 'though I tend to agree with Vegta that it ain't gonna be on, at least in our lifetimes nor even in the lifetimes of our grandchildren. Pity.
Dust storms. Try this link: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast16jul_1.htm called
Planet Gobbling Dust Storms It says in part:quote:
The surface of the entire planet was hidden by the biggest dust storm anyone had ever seen! Only Olympus Mons, a giant volcano 24 kilometers high, peeked above the clouds.
The surface of the entire planet was hidden by the biggest dust storm anyone had ever seen! Only Olympus Mons, a giant volcano 24 kilometers high, peeked above the clouds.
Later on it says, talking in July 2001:quote:
Three weeks ago a new dust storm erupted on Mars. It's the largest in 25 years and still growing. The storm is so big that amateur astronomers using modest telescopes can see it from Earth. And the cloud has raised the temperature of the frigid Martian atmosphere by a stunning 30 degrees Celsius. Now that's global warming!
At last some direct evidence about what a vast, dense planetary dusting can do. The scientists used to call it by such names as "Nuclear Winter".
And then there's this:quote:
"This is a big deal," says Christensen. Although Mars is smaller than Earth, its surface area equals the sum of all the continents on our planet. Imagine a dust storm on Earth that blanketed every continent at once. Its enough to make an allergy sufferer shiver (and sneeze).
And answering your question, this:quote:
And the nuisance wouldn't be short-lived, because once underway Martian dust storms don't quickly end. "Big events tend to last for weeks or months," says Christensen. "In fact, we're not certain what makes them stop.
Christensen is NASA's investigator at Arizona State.
It's all veeerrryyyy interesting. |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
|
|
|
Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 13:08:58 [Permalink]
|
While all the yammer yo just wrote down may be "interesting" what really counts is what yo wrote earlierquote:
There is no bigger threat to the United States than a potential impactor. No cost to find and defend against a potential impactor, whether asteroid or air-bursting comet, is too much.
Taken in the context that 'they' are actually reducing expenditures for space, it really and truly does "STINKS of the lowest political hells of Bribery and Corruption" in high places in government.  |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 15:08:00 [Permalink]
|
Sea Sorbust wrote:quote:
Taken in the context that 'they' are actually reducing expenditures for space, it really and truly does "STINKS of the lowest political hells of Bribery and Corruption" in high places in government.
So does any reduction in funding of a governmental program you approve of constitute "bribery and corruption?" Or can we dispense with the hyperbole and calmly discuss whether manned missions are required "to find and defend against" potential impactors? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 16:08:18 [Permalink]
|
Thanks for the info, Sea. To my embarrassment, I must admit that I've not paid as much attention to Mars as I might. Guess I'm not much of a stargazer. 
Hmm. 'Impactor': noun, meaning that which impacts, I assume. My, how the language evolves!
Ok, so let's say an impact big, freakin', rock perhaps 2 klicks long by maybe 1/2 klick fat is headed for us at whatever the speed the Asteroid Belt travels, and won't yield the right of way. At what minium range must we spot it to be able to divert or destroy it with the tools we happen to have on hand at the moment?
Larry Niven fans might have some fun with this.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 17:33:56 [Permalink]
|
filthy wrote:quote:
At what minium range must we spot it to be able to divert or destroy it with the tools we happen to have on hand at the moment?
If you're asking about distance, it may not matter so much. Your big, freakin' rock might, for example, be real close when it is discovered that it's orbit around the Sun will crash it into Earth in, say, four years. It might very well get farther away in that time.
There was a recent article in either Scientific American or in Discover about unmanned ships which could - theoretically - land on an asteroid destined to crash into the Earth. The ship would basically be a big engine, and push on the asteroid to change its orbit to one which misses Earth. If I remember correctly, the authors suggested that, given a reasonable propulsion system, ten years of pushing on the big freakin' rock ought to divert it enough to miss. Add to that the time for preparation, launch, travel, and rendezvous, and we need about 15 years or so advance notice. I think.
That's for an Earth-orbit-crossing asteroid. If a big freakin' chunk of ice gets flung out of the Oort Cloud towards us, that's quite a different problem. Having a telescope on Mars (actually, the farther out, the better) would give us more parallax on such objects, making them easier to detect. Actually, since the dust storms on Mars would undoubtedly be a problem, we'd want to park the telescope on an asteroid (non-Earth-orbit-crossing) or even on a moon of Jupiter.
Better yet: both. We just make these big self-contained telescope modules, and sprinkle them throughout the solar system. That would eliminate the need for manning them, too, since if one breaks down, we could just plop another one down next door.
At any rate, if we can detect the big ice-balls somewhere outside the orbit of Pluto, we might have a chance to do something about them. Otherwise, if they're coming straight for us, we're generally going to be hosed.
And that's one place I definitely disagree with Sea Sorbust. If the next major extinction event is one which will come no matter what we do, then if the cost is so high that people live out their last years in misery due to all the money being pumped into "impactor detection," the cost would, indeed, be too high.
Anybody who pays more attention to gigantic problems which might occur - while spending less effort on smaller, more-easily solved problems which are occuring - has seriously messed-up priorities. For example: the guy who spends so much time and money building a bomb shelter and stocking up for World War III that he can't hold a job or afford to get his car repaired. Spending so much on finding big freakin' rocks that people continue to starve or otherwise lead miserable lives due to other such "mundane" hassles on Earth is spending too much.
Cut spending on big-freakin'-rock detection to zero? Of course not. But there are more pressing and immediate needs of the people of the world, and that means that spending, say, a trillion bucks a year on it is ludicrous, as well. There's a happy medium, somewhere. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
