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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 11/25/2003 : 07:36:53 [Permalink]
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Bush is a criminal. The attack was criminal. Much like the Iraqi attack of Kuwait. You wouldn't suggest that it was a mistake for Iraq to "pull out" of Kuwait, so I'm not sure why you'd think it would be a mistake for the U.S. to "pull out" of Iraq. They have been brutally attacking the country for over a dozen years, and before that they were alternately supporting and screwing over the Kurds, Saddam, Iran and the people of Iraq.
quote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
I wouldn't say its going particularly well. but pulling out of Iraq would be the worst thing they could do IMO.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
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Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 07:39:37 [Permalink]
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Well, I know that but I'm still shocked that this criminal is even considered as a reasonable human being by anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
If anybody on this bulletin board has any doubt that Bush II doesn't have a better than average chance on winning the presidency in 2004 they should visit working class America. Go visit Moore's hometown.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 08:33:46 [Permalink]
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Tim, you've made an excellent point.
When you live in a progressive city, or a liberal enclave, it's easy to forget that many--if not a slight majority at times--Americans think like the men you described. I'm surrounded by other latte liberals here, so I check out the Drudge Report, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, George Will, etc. They are wrong--not just misguided or foolish, but factually wrong--a surprising majority of the time. But I read them anyway because they speak for a lot of people.
My mom (bless her aging hippy soul) and I watch Fox News and laugh out loud. In her day, Fox's reporting would have been called yellow journalilsm. They're essentially a flag-waving propaganda machine for the Bush administration. Gawd, I miss the days of real journalism.
Michael Moore apparently played loose with the truth on his last movie and has lost some credibility in my mind. I don't think the right wing takes him seriously and I'm not sure he has much real influence in America. Besides, if people disagree politically with an entertainer of any kind, they simply denigrate the entire entertainment industry--or imply that because someone sings or acts for a living, their opinion is worthless. Gawd, I miss the days when Americans were rational. If they ever were.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 08:46:19 [Permalink]
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| With what was he loose with the truth? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 10:27:27 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, spinsanity.com talks about some of Moore's inaccuracies. Plenty of anti-Moore sites exist; I don't find them very credible either, though.
Example: splicing together the Willie Horton ad and another ad, making them appear to be one ad in "Bowling for Columbine." Example: claiming Charlton Heston et al raced to protest in Colorado (I think it was Colorado) when they were already scheduled to meet there.
In Moore's defense, he claims that what he does is mainly comedy and entertainment. I agree, but that's no excuse to lie. And this is coming from someone (me) who loved "Roger & Me".
I'm tired of struggling to find facts and logic amidst all the partisan brawling. I'm a newshound and a well-read person and I have no bloody idea what really happened to Jessica Lynch. (I also don't care, but that's beside the point.) Where, pray tell, can I go to find out? The military lied; the TV documentary lied; the mainstream media repeats the lies; the propaganda websites lie....
*sigh* |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 14:00:00 [Permalink]
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I agree that Michael Moore is a tad loose with the facts sometimes but the left probably needs a few like him to balance against nutballs like Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly. For that I can accept a stretch once in a while.
But I still prefer Al Franken who I have seen publicly take back something if he's called on it several times. I regretted seeing him slip up but you certainly can't fault his integrity.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 00:29:32 [Permalink]
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Postedby Renae quote:
Example: splicing together the Willie Horton ad and another ad, making them appear to be one ad in "Bowling for Columbine." Example: claiming Charlton Heston et al raced to protest in Colorado (I think it was Colorado) when they were already scheduled to meet there.
I don't follow the claims of film makers like Moore. However, from memory, I believe that in Bowling for Columbine he stated that the Heston's appearance in Colorado and Michigan were already scheduled before the killings.
Also, Moore confronted Heston about a six year old girl killed by a class mate near Detroit that occured after Columbine. This attack on Heston I thought to be mean-spirited, but no less mean-spirited than some of Heston's actions.
I think the most important statement made by Moore in his recent movie was on the American culture of gun use. I do not recall Moore ever making a call for the Legislature to criminalize gun ownership.
I don't mean to be argumentative, but neither Moore nor Franken seem to be passing themselves off as professional journalists. On the other hand, the Limbaughs, O'Reilly, Hannity, and the rest are claiming journalistic professionalism.
I have noticed that Molly Ivins has been as strident in her attacks on the right in general and on the president in particular, and has received little challenge. Could that be that she has impeccable qualifications, and slants her story with uncontested facts?
I hope so.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 05:32:21 [Permalink]
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| I could have this wrong, but my memory tells me that I've heard Rush Limbaugh say that he is nothing more than an entertainer. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 07:33:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I could have this wrong, but my memory tells me that I've heard Rush Limbaugh say that he is nothing more than an entertainer.
This is true; he has and on more occasions than one. But I fear that that soft, little disclamer has long been lost in his general blather. And I think that the Ditto-heads and Freepers are afflicted with chronic, selective perception syndrom. We all have this to a degree, but it seems that our political right-wing suffers more from it than the rest of us.
I myself am waiting for the results of the FL drug and money laundering investigation. I'm curious to see how creative they get in their excuse(s) for letting him off the hook.
I don't think Moore is alienating any on-the-fence voters. Indeed, I'm not at all sure that there are any of that breed left. This administration has been the most polarizing in my memory. Not even Johnson nor Nixon did more to divide the country, nor did it more blantly. This could make for a beautifully nasty, '04 election.
Which reminds me; some of the fringe element of left wing have been prophetizing that the ridiculous terror color code (does anyone really pay attention to that anymore?) will go red around next summer, and there will be no election.
Hmm. I must say that it's good to know that the rabid right does not have the exclusive franchise on wingnuts, but I say it cautiously....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
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Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 07:40:55 [Permalink]
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On the other hand, the Limbaughs, O'Reilly, Hannity, and the rest are claiming journalistic professionalism
Yes, agreed. I do understand the difference between those folks and Michael Moore. However, if Moore purports to make a documentary, he has an obligation to tell his story truthfully. At least, if he wants to be taken seriously by me. 
I trust Molly Ivins to get her facts reasonably right, as I do most liberals. However, it's also easy to selectively present the facts and omit other facts in order to prove a point. We all do it. That's why I read news from lots of sources.
Rush Limbaugh is taken seriously by Republicans, though if he has any education in Journalism, he regularly disregards it. Example: When the FCC made its ruling to allow more concentration of media ownership, he claimed that liberals were against it because it undermined the 'liberal media' dominance and would undermine the conservative talk show voices (like him).
What's factually true is that diversity of voices in the media is a fundamental tenent of journalism and pre-dates the rise of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh by decades at least. I know this because I have a degree in a related area. But how many Republicans, whom it's doubtful have any media studies in their backgrounds, know this? |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 12:17:36 [Permalink]
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| I agree, Renae. I just hold journalists to a higher standard than the Hollywood types. However, if Moore wants to pass himself off as a serious documentary film maker, then he too should aspire to the highest standards. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 16:44:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bush is a criminal. The attack was criminal.
Because it wasn't sanctioned by the UN?
quote:
They have been brutally attacking the country for over a dozen years
but the previous actions were supported by the UN. Do you have a problem with all of them? Or just the "illegal" ones. Or are you just using the word "illegal" to imply that its wrong no matter what the circumstances.
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Much like the Iraqi attack of Kuwait. You wouldn't suggest that it was a mistake for Iraq to "pull out" of Kuwait
Apples and oranges. And why are you putting "pull out" in quotations like that?
What really gets me is how many people suddenly decided to care about Iraqis. No one gave a shit about them when they were being ruled by a crazy tyrant for decades, but now we're all humanitarians. Maybe we should just withdraw from the international scene altogether and let these people go back to living "peacefully" in their regimes, then we can go back to not giving a shit.
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What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
| Edited by - Vegeta on 11/28/2003 16:46:12 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 17:14:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Because it wasn't sanctioned by the UN?
Because attacking other countries violates international law.
quote:
but the previous actions were supported by the UN.
They were supported by the UN Security Council, not the UN. The UN Charter, which is the law of the land in the U.S., not to mention other international legal structures, does not allow for one country to attack another without negotations, and does not allow attacking a civilian population for political reasons.
quote:
Apples and oranges. And why are you putting "pull out" in quotations like that?
It is the same thing. I was quoting your term. Did you think it was a bad idea for Saddam Hussein to "pull out" of Kuwait?
quote:
What really gets me is how many people suddenly decided to care about Iraqis. No one gave a shit about them when they were being ruled by a crazy tyrant for decades, but now we're all humanitarians. Maybe we should just withdraw from the international scene altogether and let these people go back to living "peacefully" in their regimes, then we can go back to not giving a shit.
I'm sorry you didn't give a shit about the Iraqi people when they were being ruled by a crazy tyrant, who was supported by the U.S. Many people did. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2003 : 00:46:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Michael Moore was touring Europe promoting his latest book and informing europeans about the stupidity of the American population in general and the stupidity of Bush in particular.
His stated goal is to get Bush voted out of office.
I was just wondering, does his actions really help this cause or is he preaching to the choir, alienating potential anti-B voters?
What do you think?
I think Michael Moore is an idiot, a big fat idiot. His movies are just entertainment, are not factual and not to be taken seriously.
IMO he's preaching to the choir and isn't going to influence anyone, who can read. |
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