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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 12/02/2003 : 10:09:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Starman:
I was just wondering, does his actions really help this cause or is he preaching to the choir, alienating potential anti-B voters?
quote:
Snake:
I think Michael Moore is an idiot, a big fat idiot. His movies are just entertainment, are not factual and not to be taken seriously.
IMO he's preaching to the choir and isn't going to influence anyone, who can read
Michael Moore is far from being an idiot. The central points of all his movies and books should not be ignored. Sure he presents them in a humorous way. He is adept at seeing hypocrisy and is in tune with irony. So, his films and books work as entreatment and not just preaching. Is he loose with the facts? That seems to be a matter of debate. However, to use "Bowling" as an example, he successfully, and correctly pointed out that American gun culture differs from other countries. Even those countries that have as many guns per capita as we have. That was what the movie was about. Moore goes for the big picture.
By the way, Moore was suggesting that the NRA was being insensitive by not canceling the Denver rally. That the NRA has a history of being insensitive is not earth shattering news. But again, in the context of the film, it once again demonstrates that our gun culture differs from other countries.
"From my cold dead hands" indeed...
As for preaching to the choir, to a large extent, sure. But since "Bowling" was a mainstream hit, I'm sure Moore gave many people who are not as political as he is something to think about... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 19:19:43 [Permalink]
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Again, I don't know what you think isn't factual. I never read Stupid White Men and haven't seen the criticisms about that, but I don't see anything that was not factual in Bowling for Columbine. I watched part of the movie and read the Spinsanity column and Moore's reply to the column, and wonder if the Spinsanity people watched the movie.
Like the people we had here criticizing Chomsky, they read Horowitz or other Internet columnists who made things up about Chomsky rather than actually reading and trying to understand Chomsky.
I'm not saying that Moore has no faults, he certainly does. I'm just saying I don't see the evidence that Moore made a lot of mistakes on this one.
quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Starman
Michael Moore was touring Europe promoting his latest book and informing europeans about the stupidity of the American population in general and the stupidity of Bush in particular.
His stated goal is to get Bush voted out of office.
I was just wondering, does his actions really help this cause or is he preaching to the choir, alienating potential anti-B voters?
What do you think?
I think Michael Moore is an idiot, a big fat idiot. His movies are just entertainment, are not factual and not to be taken seriously.
IMO he's preaching to the choir and isn't going to influence anyone, who can read.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 09:36:40 [Permalink]
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Here's what they think of him at Rapture Ready....
To quote one of them.....I want to kill Michael Moore.
Not very Christian is it.....
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 10:19:38 [Permalink]
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| Typical. Like I said, he's no saint. I don't like his self-righteousness. I don't like his pro-Clinton stance. Clinton's a murderer too. However, he has a lot on the ball, and this is just a big right-wing smear campaign for the most part. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 06:58:20 [Permalink]
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"Michael Moore to endorse Wesley Clark... Moore: 'He's an honest and decent man. I would like to see the General debate the deserter'..."
As if Clark didn't have enough troubles.., even if me agrees with MM... |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 23:23:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Again, I don't know what you think isn't factual. I never read Stupid White Men and haven't seen the criticisms about that, but I don't see anything that was not factual in Bowling for Columbine. I watched part of the movie and read the Spinsanity column and Moore's reply to the column, and wonder if the Spinsanity people watched the movie.
Just to clear one thing up for anyone who might read your post that I'm replying to....you didn't put my words in quotes. But that's ok, I'm not picky like some people who post on this site....not meaning you Gorgo.
The thing that I don't think is factual is,....that stupid cartoon about the NRA within the movie. (although I do admit it was humorous at times) I only saw it once on TV and can't recall each and every line but at the time of seeing it I remember thinking it was 'so much' propaganda. Propaganda, not a documentary! He made it seem like the NRA (National Rifle Association) was started by the KKK(Klu Klux Clan), or that they had some kind of offical connection, which is not true. If I could see it again and comment on each scene, I could be more exact but if that was wrong than one has to think there might be other inacuracies. I have heard others point them out but since I don't know those 1st hand I won't say anything about that.
I'll see if I can check the movie out at the library (someday), but if you'd like to watch that part and then read about the NRA to compair if what he said is true then let me know what you think.
I've never heard of Stupid White Men either, if it's a book I wouldn't read it. So I don't know what you are talking about there.
And also don't know what Spinsanity column is. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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| Edited by - Woody D on 01/13/2004 23:27:09 |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 23:50:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Is he loose with the facts? That seems to be a matter of debate.
Correct me if I'm wrong......and I know you want too but isn't he billing his stuff as documentaries? Wasn't it in a catagory for documentaries for winning some sort of prize?
Do I have to point out, they are supposed to be factual? Loose with the facts doesn't 'cut it'.
quote:
However, to use "Bowling" as an example, he successfully, and correctly pointed out that American gun culture differs from other countries. Even those countries that have as many guns per capita as we have.
And the point IS? America and many things that differ from other countries. SO?
Having more or less guns, if that even is a way to compair differences, is only one factor. As you said, it's culture.
So...he pointed out that Americans are different, whoppie!
quote:
As for preaching to the choir, to a large extent, sure. But since "Bowling" was a mainstream hit, I'm sure Moore gave many people who are not as political as he is something to think about...
Yeah! They can think about the propaganda without being given all the correct facts. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 11:33:32 [Permalink]
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I think sometimes Michael Moore says things about our respective countries that we don't like to hear. Things that are similar to your drunken cousin that only turns up at weddings for the free beer. Acknowledged but rarely talked about.
Compared with the propaganda on FOX News and the like, his facts check out pretty well. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire methinks. I don't know why that when Moore is a little loose with the facts, and he can be, he gets crucified by the majority. However when the Whitehouse or FOX lie outright, the same majority don't give a rats. It is, I think, because Moore can seem “unpatriotic” in that he criticizes those in power. Believe me, those morons in Washington need a hell of a lot more criticism. Not just this administration, but all of them.
All nations have skeletons in the closet and some crazies that so some insane shit. If Moore opens some eyes and even gets one person to ask questions instead of blindly towing the party line, then that has to be good.
Doesn't it????
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 21:32:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
Compared with the propaganda on FOX News and the like, his facts check out pretty well.
Sorry G, I don't watch the news on channel 11 so I don't know what their agenda is and can't comment. However, just speaking about Moore, if he (or anyone) is going to say something to influence people who might not know better, it's ok to be one sided BUT don't imply something that isn't so, if you are supposed to be stating facts. Just because one group does it doesn't make it right.
BTW, if FOX is a News station, isn't news supposed to be impartical? How can they be presenting propaganda?
quote:
Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire methinks.
Not in this type of situation. If you mean lie or mislead because the 'other side' does.
quote:
It is, I think, because Moore can seem “unpatriotic” in that he criticizes those in power. Believe me, those morons in Washington need a hell of a lot more criticism. Not just this administration, but all of them.
You got that right.
The chief moron, P. Bush, needs more criticim. Please...SOMEBODY send him a book on how to speak proper English.
The gov. here in the USA is a bunch of morons.....there's just no other word for them. The USA is supposed to be a good place to live, free and all but we are not free. And it's getting worse. The government is out of control.
quote:
If Moore opens some eyes and even gets one person to ask questions instead of blindly towing the party line, then that has to be good.
Doesn't it????
Agree. Anyone who can get someone else thinking about anything is a good thing. As long as they continue to think and ask questions and not just belive what the person who got them to think thinks. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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| Edited by - Woody D on 01/14/2004 21:37:16 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2004 : 02:14:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
If Moore opens some eyes and even gets one person to ask questions instead of blindly towing the party line, then that has to be good.
Doesn't it????
But being called stupid might make other people stop asking question.
If he is loose with some facts all his other accusations will be dismissed as lies.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2004 : 22:04:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Me
Is he loose with the facts? That seems to be a matter of debate.
quote:
Snake:
Correct me if I'm wrong......and I know you want too but isn't he billing his stuff as documentaries? Wasn't it in a catagory for documentaries for winning some sort of prize?
Do I have to point out, they are supposed to be factual? Loose with the facts doesn't 'cut it'.
I didn't say he is loose with the facts. I said that it seems to be a matter of debate. Perhaps you should read before you reply...
quote:
Me:
However, to use "Bowling" as an example, he successfully, and correctly pointed out that American gun culture differs from other countries. Even those countries that have as many guns per capita as we have.
quote:
Snake:
So...he pointed out that Americans are different, whoppie!
Perhaps social commentary and criticism is simply lost on you. But even so, why are you getting your knickers in a bind over it?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2004 : 01:37:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I didn't say he is loose with the facts. I said that it seems to be a matter of debate. Perhaps you should read before you reply...
I read it and AGAIN I say, if there's any debate that a documentry isn't factual then it shouldn't be presented as facts, until the author/movie maker gets it right. Whatever happened to editors?
I might be skeptical about a lot of things but I'd like to trust that if I'm watching or reading something that's presented as historicly correct there shouldn't be a DEBATE that it isn't.
quote:
Perhaps social commentary and criticism is simply lost on you. But even so, why are you getting your knickers in a bind over it?
Don't know what you are talking about. I'm lost, you try again.
AND I don't wear knickers(whatever they are), sometimes I don't wear anything so I couldn't possibly be in a bind. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2004 : 21:21:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake:
I read it and AGAIN I say, if there's any debate that a documentry isn't factual then it shouldn't be presented as facts, until the author/movie maker gets it right. Whatever happened to editors?
I might be skeptical about a lot of things but I'd like to trust that if I'm watching or reading something that's presented as historicly correct there shouldn't be a DEBATE that it isn't.
So, you don't think that most if not all documentaries have a bias? And you don't think most if not all documentaries get attacked for either editing to present that bias or for making facts up? Just because a film maker is accused of making facts up doesn't make it so.
What you seem to be saying is if a film maker is accused of editing bias, than the film is not a documentary. That is utter nonsense. Just when did the accusation become the standard by which we judge? The fact is, most good documentaries are provocative and debates invariably follow... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2004 : 06:16:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
If Moore opens some eyes and even gets one person to ask questions instead of blindly towing the party line, then that has to be good.
Doesn't it????
But being called stupid might make other people stop asking question.
If he is loose with some facts all his other accusations will be dismissed as lies.
I'm not saying that he lies, he just does what anyone does when trying to win an argument. Taking the facts and figures and manipulating them to make his argument seem more attractive.
It works both ways, look at Bush at the recent summit in Mexico, twisting and turning the unemployment figures to make it look like his tax cuts were creating thousands of new jobs when if you looked at the whole picture, there were in fact very few created.
They all do it. Some worse than others. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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