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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2004 : 03:34:31 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Trish
When contraception fails, that's when abortion, the morning after pill, RU486, etc, should be employed as a means of birth control. Are you aware, that I who have had one child, am 35 years of age can not currently get my tubes tied - because I might want to have another child. THAT decision is not in MY hands where it BELONGS! Why? Who should decide that I might want another child - no one but me. A friend of mine can not have her tubes tied because she's 26 and doesn't want any children at all - she might change her mind. Why isn't it HER decision to make? Yes, educate women and MEN regarding contraception. I've already dealt with the effects on friends who've had abortions, procedure is explained before they begin. There are support options for dealing with grief after abortion, that are presented. Others are fully aware of what they are walking into when having an abortion.
Trish, is it just me or are you being self-centered in this matter? If you make a mistake, someone has to die? You could kill yourself, but you choose to kill an innocent life. There is a third and forth choice: adoption or keep and raise the child.
I wonder if mother's or any woman pondering abortion should be required to bring a child with them to the clinic to explain to the child their choices, as a matter of teaching the child from a young age what her many choices in life regarding reproduction are. You could tell the child, "Dear, your mommy choose for you to live and grow up. She could have done what I'm doing and had you aborted before birth. That is what I'm doing now, because I just don't have time for a child right now. Now, Dear, do you understand what your choices in the future are?" "But how will the baby in your tummy die, Auntie Trish?" "It's not really a baby, Dear, but they will inject me with a salt solution so the fetus will die and then the doctor will take it out of me. It's really quite simple, so you wait here, Dear." Then the child can ponder for an hour or two what is happening in the operation room. This will impact the child at an early age so that she'll be fully aware of her reproductive rights by the time she's old enough to have a child herself. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 03:55:08 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Trish
Not all of them are selfish. Is it selfish in the case of a woman who is raped, has no desire to be a mother to seek an abortion? I say no. Simply because it was the by product of a crime committed against the woman. Why should she be the one to suffer a decision that was brutally taken from her? As in the decision to have control over her own reproductive system.
Trish, out of the 50,000,000 aborted babies, how many do you think were victims of rape? Maybe a couple thousand. Okay, let's leave them out of the argument and just include all the rest of the women..will that make it more reasonable to you? I'm willing to give on this point.
You fail to acknowledge that there are some instances where it would be kinder to the child to never have been than to be born and raised where the life they face is worse than anything you would appreciate in your worst nightmares.
I am not failing in my understanding of this plight among millions, but the decision to kill an innocent to "protect" it from a "worse" fate is really a pretty weak argument, as many productive and happy people have emerged from hellish environments at home and they are thankful to be alive...perhaps more thankful than those who didn't go through much adversity. So why should a woman take it upon herself to kill a life instead of leaving it in the hands of God? Did you ever think that no one has the ability to see into the future and know what a child may become. Perhaps the one with the cure for cancer or some other great gift was killed before they had a chance to discover it. I think God knows best and understood it completely when he said, "You shall not kill" But if you don't believe in God and everything is up to you, in your mind, I can see why, in that state of pride one would choose death for another over life. That still doesn't justify it nor will it ever make it the right thing to do. Seems most arguments of pro-abortion advocates have to do with a woman's right to choose...that choice being life or death for the baby...some right.
What about men's right to choose? I think men should equally have the right to choose death or life in this case also, only it would be their right to kill the mother because she got pregnant in an untimely manner. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . Sounds awful, doesn't it, when it's your neck on the line. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 07:19:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
quote:
Originally posted by Trish
When contraception fails, that's when abortion, the morning after pill, RU486, etc, should be employed as a means of birth control. Are you aware, that I who have had one child, am 35 years of age can not currently get my tubes tied - because I might want to have another child. THAT decision is not in MY hands where it BELONGS! Why? Who should decide that I might want another child - no one but me. A friend of mine can not have her tubes tied because she's 26 and doesn't want any children at all - she might change her mind. Why isn't it HER decision to make? Yes, educate women and MEN regarding contraception. I've already dealt with the effects on friends who've had abortions, procedure is explained before they begin. There are support options for dealing with grief after abortion, that are presented. Others are fully aware of what they are walking into when having an abortion.
Trish, is it just me or are you being self-centered in this matter? If you make a mistake, someone has to die? You could kill yourself, but you choose to kill an innocent life. There is a third and forth choice: adoption or keep and raise the child.
I wonder if mother's or any woman pondering abortion should be required to bring a child with them to the clinic to explain to the child their choices, as a matter of teaching the child from a young age what her many choices in life regarding reproduction are. You could tell the child, "Dear, your mommy choose for you to live and grow up. She could have done what I'm doing and had you aborted before birth. That is what I'm doing now, because I just don't have time for a child right now. Now, Dear, do you understand what your choices in the future are?" "But how will the baby in your tummy die, Auntie Trish?" "It's not really a baby, Dear, but they will inject me with a salt solution so the fetus will die and then the doctor will take it out of me. It's really quite simple, so you wait here, Dear." Then the child can ponder for an hour or two what is happening in the operation room. This will impact the child at an early age so that she'll be fully aware of her reproductive rights by the time she's old enough to have a child herself.
Nope. Its you.
The operative words here are "contraception fails". This indicates that the operational failure of a hormonal/barrier method of birth control has not done its job. Your opinion that life begins at conception is noted. It just isn't agreed to.
Your willingness to subject small children to complex and upsetting adult situations is truely appalling. The child does not possess the emotional nor mental maturity to process the concepts that abortion contains. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 13:13:49 [Permalink]
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Doomar,
Additionally, my 13 year old is aware of what an abortion entails and the possible emotional affects of an abortion. But I must agree with Valiant Dancer, your solution to expose an unprepared child of unknown age to a complex adult situation is apalling and unutterably cruel to that child. My neice is only 8 and that is not my decision to present this information to her, that is her parents decision. Though, I disagree with my sis-in-law on almost everything, abortion and the rights of a woman to choose whether to have one or not, is one issue upon which we would agree.
Oh, and until you've walked in my shoes, you can't begin to understand the hell I've been through in my life that caused me, at age 14, to climb into a bath tub with a knife every day for nearly a year and contemplate ending everything, including to the point of wishing that I hadn't been that night my father stayed home from work late. The only thing that kept me from slicing my arms open was the thought that my mother might be the one to find me - I didn't want to put her through that. The bath tub was only there to contain the mess, you know, less for the family to have to clean up. And I grew up in a nice middle middle class family. LIfe's a bitch when you're told that you were an - Oops! |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 17:13:17 [Permalink]
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This thread is making me increasingly irritable.
Doomar, what have you, personally done to help the children that you insist need to be born?
What have you, personally, done to help the millions of children who have no health insurance? How have you, personally, helped feed America's millions of hungry children? How have you, personally, helped educate our children--particularly children in poor and inner city schools?
How have you, personally, helped the children being bounced around in the foster care system? What have you, personally, done to help abused children? How have you, personally, helped children born with disabilities (Down syndrome, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, in utero drug addiction/withdrawal, learning disabilities)?
How have you, personally, supported single moms and dads? What have you, personally, done to create job opportunities for anyone? What have you, personally, done to show your compassion for America's women and children, aside from posting on an Internet board about the evil of abortion?
We cannot adquately care for the children America already has. What in the hell would we do with another 1,000,000 unwanted babies? |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 19:13:33 [Permalink]
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Actually, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT "PRO CHOICE". I am "PRO ABORTION"! There are too many people who conceive children who are mistreated after they are born. Sooner or later, mostly sooner, the earth will be covered with people and it will be a mess.
Naturally, I would prefer that the "abortions" were taken care of EARLY in the pregnancies when the mothers are aborting only a bunch of undifferentiated cells. People who wait until the third trimester for abortions (unless there is a definite problem with the pregnancy which would endanger the lives of the mothers) should continue with their pregnancies.
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 19:29:29 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Trish
Doomar,
Additionally, my 13 year old is aware of what an abortion entails and the possible emotional affects of an abortion. But I must agree with Valiant Dancer, your solution to expose an unprepared child of unknown age to a complex adult situation is apalling and unutterably cruel to that child. My neice is only 8 and that is not my decision to present this information to her, that is her parents decision. Though, I disagree with my sis-in-law on almost everything, abortion and the rights of a woman to choose whether to have one or not, is one issue upon which we would agree.
Trish, I was speaking tongue in cheek about the young girl. If you realize how appalling it is, why would you even considering taking a life, which is far more appalling. I can empathize with your personal plight brought on by a mother who didn't want you, but at least you have the opportunity to overcome this terrible emotional trauma. Many of us have emotional scars we carry. "While there is life, there is hope."
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 19:44:20 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Renae
What have you, personally, done to help the millions of children who have no health insurance?
Renae, what if I could boast about all I've done, would that make you listen more intently to the argument? I think not. If a woman has had 5 abortions, should her argument for abortion be all the stronger? I don't think so. The argument has to do with what is right and good for everyone involved. Is it good for mothers to kill their unborn babies? No. Is it right for the unborn to pay for the mistakes of the mother? Is it the unborn who is guilty? Of course not. There is indeed guilt or blame upon a woman who has become pregnant because of illicit sex. Should that blame be multiplied by making her a murderer also? I don't think so. For her to face the responsibility of what she has done and do the "right" thing would not mean hiding the evidence, and committing an abortion. Bringing the baby to term and putting it up for adoption would be much more amiable to both the mother, the baby, and the adoptive parents. Sure, there will be pain and suffering through the pregnancy and birth and giving up of the child, but if the child is unwanted anyway, is that really a great pain; but compared to purposeful killing of the unborn infant and the emotional scars created by such a desparate act, the pregnacy/birth pains seem far more bearable.
We cannot adquately care for the children America already has. What in the hell would we do with another 1,000,000 unwanted babies?
I really don't think you know whereof you speak. America is by far the richest country in the world. The problem is, we live way to extravagent of lifestyle. A little more temperance and there would be plenty for millions more. One would have to make sacrifices, however, like maybe only one car and one tv and one house and not so much restuarant eating or fancy clothes. When one looks at countries like China and India with their vast populations and thinks Americans can not possibly have a million more babies, well, I don't know what to say about that kind of thinking. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/19/2004 19:55:04 |
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myteshuvah
New Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 06:32:53 [Permalink]
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I am not a prolife advocate and don't care if people get abortions.
What I can't understand is how a person can kill their own child. I have heard rationalizations about when life begins or the rape, incest, mother's life's in danger retort.
But I still just can't bring myself to understand how a doctor can kill a child or how a person can live with themself after the deed is done.
Nobody who is pro-choice ever seems to be able to answer this. And again, I am not saying abortion should be illegal or that I care about babies dying so long as it is not mine.
Go ahead, kill your children; it shrinks the welfare rolls. Less competition for my kids. But if there is anybody who had ever killed their own child and still thinks they did the right thing, maybe you can help me understand this.
How can people do such a horrible thing? |
What is bad for you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Law; all the rest of it is commentary." Hillel
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 07:19:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I really don't think you know whereof you speak. America is by far the richest country in the world. The problem is, we live way to extravagent of lifestyle. A little more temperance and there would be plenty for millions more. One would have to make sacrifices, however, like maybe only one car and one tv and one house and not so much restuarant eating or fancy clothes. When one looks at countries like China and India with their vast populations and thinks Americans can not possibly have a million more babies, well, I don't know what to say about that kind of thinking.
Interesting.
What is your political affiliation, if any? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 07:35:23 [Permalink]
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So Doomar, your answer to my questions is "Nothing." You do little or nothing to help solve the social ills caused by women bearing unwated children (or children they're not emotionally or financially capable of raising.) Yet you have a righteous, self-congratulatory belief that women should just bloody well have the child anyway.
You, I'm assuming, have a penis rather than a uterus. Yet you preach to women what's best for them and their fetus. You have no clue, none at all, what it feels like to be pregnant, frightened, conflicted, confused....
Repulsive. You're yet another pseudo-Christian who's ego-surfing when he should be sympathizing and morally masturbating when he should be practicing humility and empathy.
And I'm going to have another fresh biscuit and iced tea for breakfast and be done with this thread. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 07:58:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by myteshuvah
I am not a prolife advocate and don't care if people get abortions.
What I can't understand is how a person can kill their own child. I have heard rationalizations about when life begins or the rape, incest, mother's life's in danger retort.
But I still just can't bring myself to understand how a doctor can kill a child or how a person can live with themself after the deed is done.
Nobody who is pro-choice ever seems to be able to answer this. And again, I am not saying abortion should be illegal or that I care about babies dying so long as it is not mine.
Go ahead, kill your children; it shrinks the welfare rolls. Less competition for my kids. But if there is anybody who had ever killed their own child and still thinks they did the right thing, maybe you can help me understand this.
How can people do such a horrible thing?
Allow me to reply.
There are some medical situations which require an abortion for the health of the mother. A big arguement for such an abortion is a tubal pregnancy. Tubal pregnancies are when the zygote implants in the uteran tubes instead of the uterus. A pregnancy of this sort is a death sentance for both mother and child. In effect, you get to kill two people if you deny this kind of abortion.
How can these individuals live with themselves? Because they have a different view of the world than you. They have looked at the evils of the situation and come to a different analysis. Likewise, their spiritual direction does not agree with your "all abortions are wrong" stance. This is not a decision these individuals come to lightly. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 08:00:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
We cannot adquately care for the children America already has. What in the hell would we do with another 1,000,000 unwanted babies?
I really don't think you know whereof you speak. America is by far the richest country in the world. The problem is, we live way to extravagent of lifestyle. A little more temperance and there would be plenty for millions more. One would have to make sacrifices, however, like maybe only one car and one tv and one house and not so much restuarant eating or fancy clothes. When one looks at countries like China and India with their vast populations and thinks Americans can not possibly have a million more babies, well, I don't know what to say about that kind of thinking.
Sounds like Anarcy or Communism to me. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 09:06:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Trish, I was speaking tongue in cheek about the young girl. If you realize how appalling it is, why would you even considering taking a life, which is far more appalling. I can empathize with your personal plight brought on by a mother who didn't want you, but at least you have the opportunity to overcome this terrible emotional trauma. Many of us have emotional scars we carry. "While there is life, there is hope."
Fuck! Doomar I'd laugh in your face if this wasn't so ridiculous. My mother wanted me, she would have been allowed under Roe v Wade to have an abortion when I was born. I was jokingly called the Oops child, it affected me, because of other things that happened in my life. It was one of many things that fed into a desire to end everything. I doubt seriously you can empathize - for some reason you remind me of my brother - knows what's best for other people without the ability to understand where they are coming from.
Donates old clothes and toys and a crib, stroller, and highchair to the lady down the street that does foster care. Foster children are often placed without more than one set of clothing, one set of sleepwear. Not much but what I can do today. Find the foster parents in your area, they should be networking with other foster parents for clothing exchange. Plus finding out the sizes of children currently in their care and purchasing a new set of clothing for that specific child can really make the childs day. It's easy for them to keep clothing for young kids, as children are constantly outgrowing their clothing, it's the teens in particular that really appreciate a new set of clothes and need clothing, since there aren't alot of donations for kids that are teens. Not much, but what I can do right now. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 20:27:27 [Permalink]
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[/quote]Interesting.
What is your political affiliation, if any?
[/quote]
Doc, I've been Republican most of my voting life, but started out working in the Democratic party caucuses in Minnesota. The pro abortion stance was so strong I had to leave. Today I am in a quandry, as I opposed going to war with Iraq and still do. I strongly oppose this new "Pre-emptive war policy". I oppose giving illegal aliens any legal status like Bush suggested without severe penalties. His idea alone, without any Congressional support has increased the flow of illegals into the country, by last report. The fact that Bush has not sealed our borders or made it a priority in the war against terror has me baffled. How can you speak about homeland security without closing the border to terrorists? I don't get it. I was for going to war with Afghanistan, because Al Qada is there. I liked tax cuts, but the huge increase in spending as a result of the war in Iraq is just bad. So, in summation, I guess I'm an independent now. What is your political affiliation? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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