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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2004 : 20:29:20 [Permalink]
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myteshuvah said,
How can people do such a horrible thing?
[/quote]
A very good point. I have the same question. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 20:34:08 [Permalink]
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Trish,
you said,
My mother wanted me, she would have been allowed under Roe v Wade to have an abortion when I was born. I was jokingly called the Oops child,
My, bad, being an "oops" didn't necessarily mean you weren't wanted. Sorry. I do apologize. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 19:13:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Interesting.
What is your political affiliation, if any?
Doc, I've been Republican most of my voting life, but started out working in the Democratic party caucuses in Minnesota. The pro abortion stance was so strong I had to leave.
<snip by Mabuse>
I liked tax cuts, but the huge increase in spending as a result of the war in Iraq is just bad. So, in summation, I guess I'm an independent now. What is your political affiliation?
I was asking, because the suggestions you made to re-distribute wealth is a very communist idea. Communism in the good, ideological sense, not the McCarthy Red Soviet Commie Menace sense.
In my limited understanding of American politics I've gotten the idea that most American Christians lean toward the political right, Republicans. I have never understood how such people were thinking, because I've always thought that being Christian also meant having a desire to help people less fortune, all people being equal and such ideas. Heck, the bible even preaches that wealth corrupts your soul.
My entire life, my political affiliation has been the Social-democrats in Sweden. This last ten years though, both the former communist party and social-democrats has moved to the right. The communist party discarded the title "communist" and now only calls themselves "the Left Party", and since I haven't changed my ideas of how the country should be, I have started voting for them.
I pay almost 40% income tax, but I don't complain. This gives me practically free medical care, which is good, because I didn't have to pay a dime when I broke the neck of the femur while playing indoor bandy. It gives children access to free education to the age of ~20, depending of what you choose to study once you leave the compulsory school at age 16.
Sweden has one of the highest (if not the highest) literacy rates in the world, thanks to the Social-democrats being in power ~60 of the last 70 years.
Now, back to the topic of the thread:
There is a conservative Christian party in Sweden, and even they are not pushing for laws against abortion. They do say that they are unhappy with every lost life, but want to prevent unwanted pregnancies through sex-education, other kinds of education, and increased available of contraceptives (partly state sponsored), and when the pregnancy is a fact they work to improve the social and economic situation. They state that the final decision should be made by the pregnant woman.
Edit: Some clarification. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/24/2004 19:16:56 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2004 : 09:36:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is a conservative Christian party in Sweden, and even they are not pushing for laws against abortion. They do say that they are unhappy with every lost life, but want to prevent unwanted pregnancies through sex-education, other kinds of education, and increased available of contraceptives (partly state sponsored), and when the pregnancy is a fact they work to improve the social and economic situation. They state that the final decision should be made by the pregnant woman.
From Concerned Women for America ( http://www.lafalce.com/library/life/2002-01-29_agenda.shtml )
quote:
Family Planning
The market for abortion has been increased by government subsidies for premarital sex. But when the government began supporting abstinence education programs, the statistics on out-of-wedlock pregnancies and abortions started to head downwards. We know what works. Therefore abstinence education funding needs to be increased substantially, while less money is wasted on promoting the sexual liberation of children in the name of “family planning.” Obviously, giving “morning after” pills to schoolchildren is an outrage that both Houses of Congress have already rejected. Moreover, abortionists should not be eligible to receive “family planning” funds.
http://www.naral.org/Issues/contraception/contraception_facts.cfm
I'm going to give the page of links here, since I can't settle on one particular link to show that contraceptive education is necessary. Mab, definitely appreciate that view. Most (I won't say all - cause I can't in honesty) Pro-Life proponents support the concept of Abstinence and do not support other contraceptive measures. The majority of pro-choice proponents support the education of women and men regarding contraceptive measures.
I can't find any particular article that supports or denies the correllary concept pointed out on the pro-life article. I need to look further into the situation.
My point is, as Mab pointed out, education is necessary (this from a pro-life stance - I trully applaude them), working to improve the economic and social situation is trully necessary, but the final choice does belong to the woman. What I don't get is the concept that education and access to contraceptives won't decrease the numbers of abortions. It makes no sense.
If someone can logically argue that a lack of education and lack of access to contraceptives will decrease the number of abortions, I'd really like to hear it. Instead, I hear, 'these women are insensitive', 'selfish', etc. This isn't an argument, it's emotion speaking. Please show me how denying education and denying contraceptives will decrease the number of abortions performed.
I think the thing that the pro-lifers on this argument fail to see, is I would love nothing more than to see the number of abortions performed per capita in the US drop. Why, because I want women to have the choice, but that choice must be made from a position of knowledge. If there is no knowledge of other forms of contraception and how they work, i.e., the pill can be rendered ineffective by anti-biotics - therefore some other form of contraception needs to be used for this time period and a considerable time following, then abortion will continue as the largest form of birth control - when it is unnecessary. I would like to see control of choice turned to the woman regarding effectively having her tubes tied, instead of this garbage of, 'You may want to have a child/another child.' Don't you think that would reduce the number of non-medically necessary abortions right there. Granted there are other side-effects that the woman needs to be aware of with tying her tubes, but that is not the issue here, the issue is she doesn't have a say in the matter. Why?
Pro-choice supporters are concerned with the quality of life expected for the potential mother and for her existing family and for the many children who would have gone unwanted. Outside of 'it's against the bible' where does your compassion lie? |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2004 : 18:09:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Pro-choice supporters are concerned with the quality of life expected for the potential mother and for her existing family and for the many children who would have gone unwanted. Outside of 'it's against the bible' where does your compassion lie?
I'm not sure, but there seems to be a misunderstanding regarding what camp I'm in.
I don't give a flying f**k what the bible says. I'm pro-choice.
The reason I brought up the Swedish Christian Democrats (who are conservative, in spite of their name. In Sweden, a "democrat" is for democracy and opposed to despotism...) is to show Doomar, Creation88, and Fundies(tm) that there are educated and enlightened Christian conservatives. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 10:18:09 [Permalink]
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Mab,
This wasn't directed at you, more about those that support no choice for the woman. My apologies if I put my response together in a manner that suggested you weren't standing for the position you do.
Trish |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 00:03:17 [Permalink]
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Trish said, Pro-choice supporters are concerned with the quality of life expected for the potential mother and for her existing family and for the many children who would have gone unwanted. Outside of 'it's against the bible' where does your compassion lie?
"the many children who would have gone unwanted" Trish, this is a huge assumption that pro-choicers make. There are many thousands of couples desiring to adopt an American baby. It is so hard to do because of all the abortions. These babies are wanted, just not by the natural mother. I have compassion for those little souls that are being killed at the rate of 3,000 per every 16 hours or about 187 per hour. I would like to see them given a chance at life, they may not get all the best their is, but at least they would have the choice. So, I guess I'm pro-choice for fetuses.
I have compassion on the mother's who abort, because they are hurting themselves emotionally and spiritually by committing this desperate act. Whenever someone has to die for the result of a mistake or poor choice a woman or man makes, it is a desperate act. The choice of life is almost always available. I think it takes more love and compassion for a woman to bear this awesome responsibility inspite of a mistake for the good of herself and her offspring, whether she gives it up for adoption or keeps it. People are continually changing and what they felt one day, about the baby not being wanted, could easily change when they see that baby and begin to love it. I have compassion on the doctors whose lives are being destroyed as they disregard their oath to preserve life in order to become wealthy. Their dreams of saving lifes as a doctor are all but vanquished by a lifestyle of taking life every day they come to work.
I have compassion on the families who hate their circumstance so bad that they'd kill a helpless fetus to help them survive. This is surely a horrible and desperate predicament. We should try to help such families so that a helpless soul doesn't have to die.
I just think that life is a gift from God and we need to respect it more than we do. I really think that morally, the only choice a pregnant woman should have to deal with, is where she will get the means to deliver a healthy baby and how she will support it, or if she must give the child up for adoption because she cannot cope with having a child at this time. These are noble choices. Also, when her physical life is threatened by pregancy, she must certainly choose between her life and the new life of the baby...usually most agree that her life is most important in that scenario. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 01:17:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
"the many children who would have gone unwanted" Trish, this is a huge assumption that pro-choicers make. There are many thousands of couples desiring to adopt an American baby. It is so hard to do because of all the abortions. These babies are wanted, just not by the natural mother. I have compassion for those little souls that are being killed at the rate of 3,000 per every 16 hours or about 187 per hour. I would like to see them given a chance at life, they may not get all the best their is, but at least they would have the choice. So, I guess I'm pro-choice for fetuses.
And many thousands of couples that aren't willing or able to get certified as foster parents and go through the process for legal adoption. There are thousands of children who aren't being adopted due to a lack of couples/individuals deemed eligble by the state to adopt. Seems to me that private adoptions amount to buying a baby. Your thousands of couples that want to adopt are not enough to keep up with the numbers of children that are unwanted.
quote:
I have compassion on the mother's who abort, because they are hurting themselves emotionally and spiritually by committing this desperate act.
First, I'd like you to prove the spiritual. Giving away something that you just spent 10 months carrying, felt moving, just spent however many hours screaming in pain (until that wonderful thing called an epidural is administered), were sliced open to deliver, and etc, isn't emotionally painful!? Please! Have you no capacity for empathy? Perhaps it's easier to deal with not having gone through that for some women, than to part with the child you just went through all that to deliver.
quote:
Whenever someone has to die for the result of a mistake or poor choice a woman or man makes, it is a desperate act. The choice of life is almost always available. I think it takes more love and compassion for a woman to bear this awesome responsibility inspite of a mistake for the good of herself and her offspring, whether she gives it up for adoption or keeps it.
You think abortion is a desparate act. You've obviously never taken a friend to the abortion clinic, sat with her while she debated the issue, refused to tell her she should or shouldn't do this, forced her to make the decision for herself, have you? You haven't sat and rocked her to sleep as she cried because she went through with the decision. Dealt with her believing that God was punishing her for having an abortion by not letting her get pregnant when she got married and was ready for kids. I've dealt with all this and more, with more than one or two friends. I've seen the devestation having an abortion can deal in a life.
I've also seen the friends that were quite certain that the abortion was the only choice open to them at peace with their choice. Knowing that it was the right decision for them to make at the time. Knowing that there was no way they could raise a child. There are things you don't and can't know about the woman who chooses to have an abortion. Most of them really do think about what it means to their life, then and in the future, before they go through with an abortion.
quote:
People are continually changing and what they felt one day, about the baby not being wanted, could easily change when they see that baby and begin to love it. I have compassion on the doctors whose lives are being destroyed as they disregard their oath to preserve life in order to become wealthy. Their dreams of saving lifes as a doctor are all but vanquished by a lifestyle of taking life every day they come to work.
Primum Non Nocere - first do no harm. There is the issue of some of the older remedies provided for abortions. Like the ones that turned the insides of women to jelly, killing them slowly. Or the coat hanger, bike spoke, knitting needle version of the DNC. First do no harm. How does offering a safe abortion violate the concept of do no harm. I doubt seriously that the doctors at family planning are getting rich quick on abortions. Considering that most of the women who go to family planning can ill afford an abortion, let alone the raising of a child. But she damn sure can't get her tubes tied can she! Abortion is not a get rich quick scheme. It is an elective surgery, not covered by most medical plans. An abortion today takes approximately 1/2 to 1 hour, costs approximately $250, that pays for the anesthesiologist, doctor, nurse, and facility. Definitely not a get rich quick scheme there. An anesthesiologist gets paid more in a hospital than in an abortion clinic.
quote:
I have compassion on the families who hate their circumstance so bad that they'd kill a helpless fetus to help them survive. This is surely a horrible and desperate predicament. We should try to help such families so that a helpless soul doesn't have to die.
You mean, letting them have access to things like, oh birth control pills or condoms? Or do you mean access to medical coverage? Or maybe you're willing to pay their rent, or their utilities, or their phone, or buy their groceries for the month when they have to let one of those bills slide every month becuase there just isn't enough income in the household to pay all the bills every month. Eventually, they will have the phone disconnected, the utilities will be shut off, destroying of course all the food in the fridge, causing them to have to pay fines, etc to get the utilities turned back on, but everyone just has to tighten the belt and deal with the mac 'n cheese made with powdered milk and no butter, because there isn't anything else in the house. Only most people don't keep a box of powdered milk anymore. And you want to burden this family with another mouth to feed instead of allowing the woman the choice to have an abortion? (The box of powdered milk is really important to have when your electric is turned off - nothing like semi warm milk on your morning cereal, the kids think it's a real treat.)
quote:
I just think that life is a gift from God and we need to respect it more than we do. I really think that morally, the only choice a pregnant woman should have to deal with, is where she will get the means to deliver a healthy baby and how she will support it, or if she must give the child up for adoption because she cannot cope with having a child at this time. These are noble choices.
Nice that you think it's a gift from God, but well, I don't think much of your God, or anyone elses for that matter, we'll leave it at that. Noble choices? Where's the nobility in forcing someone you don't know, probably wouldn't say go |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 07:35:44 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I was asking, because the suggestions you made to re-distribute wealth is a very communist idea. Communism in the good, ideological sense, not the McCarthy Red Soviet Commie Menace sense.
In my limited understanding of American politics I've gotten the idea that most American Christians lean toward the political right, Republicans. I have never understood how such people were thinking, because I've always thought that being Christian also meant having a desire to help people less fortune, all people being equal and such ideas. Heck, the bible even preaches that wealth corrupts your soul.
Doc, I am actually strongly opposed to communism and socialism. I'm not sure how you put together this idea that I supported state funding of children. I believe their are millions of American individuals that want to adopt American babies who are now being aborted. I am for individual help/charity towards those pregnant women in need, not necessarily state help, though I would not be opposed to state help of those in desparate need wanting to save their baby. Communism is a dividing of wealth and removal of ownership from individuals and property/companies being run by the state. When people own their own companies and profits, they are free to give as they like and many do. In your country of Sweden, don't you have extremely high tax rates in order to pay for all the benefits you receive? Does the government simply regulate business or actually own many businesses, including health care facilities? Or do they only own transportation facilities, airports, and so on. This is off the subject, but thought I'd ask. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 08:50:13 [Permalink]
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trish said,
And many thousands of couples that aren't willing or able to get certified as foster parents and go through the process for legal adoption. There are thousands of children who aren't being adopted due to a lack of couples/individuals deemed eligble by the state to adopt. Seems to me that private adoptions amount to buying a baby. Your thousands of couples that want to adopt are not enough to keep up with the numbers of children that are unwanted.
Isn't this an adoption law problem? Let fix that problem, not kill the babies. Do we let young children die because families don't have funds for health care, or do we make a way for the funds? You see, Trish, I think it is a matter of will and belief. Pro Abortion people believe a child is not really a child until born, so that child has no rights. Killing that child in the womb is an option, but a pro lifer sees the fetus in the womb as a child with rights, especially the right to live.
As soon as your baby is born, you realize by law that it would be murder to kill it, but to pull it's head out of the womb during birth, kill the baby and then deliver it was somehow not murder to abortionists. This is indeed a moral decision that results in the death of a living being. You simply choose not to care or believe that, while I do. This argument about compassion for the mother is based solely on your interpretation of when life begins, or when a child becomes a child. You just don't see that that child in the womb is your soon to be heir and daughter or son who will give you grandchildren, and take care of you when you're old. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 09:02:51 [Permalink]
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trish said,
First, I'd like you to prove the spiritual. Giving away something that you just spent 10 months carrying, felt moving, just spent however many hours screaming in pain (until that wonderful thing called an epidural is administered), were sliced open to deliver, and etc, isn't emotionally painful!? Please! Have you no capacity for empathy? Perhaps it's easier to deal with not having gone through that for some women, than to part with the child you just went through all that to deliver.
Empathy? Yes. But you are talking about child birth, which is a part of nature. Millions have successfully gone through it, inspite of the pain. Not one aborted baby makes it. They all die. In some procedures, they are cut into pieces, sliced up within the womb to be removed. Do you have empathy for that dying child? I heard the story from a former abortionist doctor who video taped (by sonigram) an abortion procedure done by a fellow doctor. When the instruments of death were inserted into the womb near the baby the baby moved to avoid them, but where could it go? When the instrument cut off the living baby's arm, you could see the mouth open like a scream...a silent scream. As the baby was cut apart into small pieces, do you think it felt pain? The doctor who had videoed this scene wanted the performing doctor to view it...he refused. After much urging, the abortionist doctor finally viewed it. He had aborted in the 10's of thousands of babies. After viewing that sonigram video once, he quit the abortion profession. Guess the reality of what he'd been doing hadn't been clear to him...it was just a "fetus", a mass of tissue. When he viewed the tape all that changed.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 09:25:19 [Permalink]
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Trish said, Primum Non Nocere - first do no harm. There is the issue of some of the older remedies provided for abortions. Like the ones that turned the insides of women to jelly, killing them slowly. Or the coat hanger, bike spoke, knitting needle version of the DNC. First do no harm. How does offering a safe abortion violate the concept of do no harm. I doubt seriously that the doctors at family planning are getting rich quick on abortions. Considering that most of the women who go to family planning can ill afford an abortion, let alone the raising of a child. But she damn sure can't get her tubes tied can she! Abortion is not a get rich quick scheme. It is an elective surgery, not covered by most medical plans. An abortion today takes approximately 1/2 to 1 hour, costs approximately $250, that pays for the anesthesiologist, doctor, nurse, and facility. Definitely not a get rich quick scheme there. An anesthesiologist gets paid more in a hospital than in an abortion clinic.
Trish, here is a link of an interview with an operator of many abortion clinics. http://www.abortionfacts.com/dr_willke/connector_july_98.asp#1 Stats about fees and how much doctors and even interns make are there. You'll see that this is a highly profitable business. Think of one doctor doing 30-40 abortions a day only one day a week and making over $100,000 a year and then tell me again how money is not involved? You are right about the cost of having a baby being much higher. It is always more expensive to live than to die, but I think its worth it. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 03/14/2004 09:31:25 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 10:13:35 [Permalink]
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Doomar, there may be thousands of couples wanting to adopt a BABY. But there aren't ENOUGH couples who want to adopt a CHILD. Get the difference?
How many children are bouncing through the foster care system, feeling unwanted, confused, and uprooted? Until every last one of those children (many of whom are considered "problems" or "troubled", due to the abuse and instability they were born into) has a permanent home, the argument that women should be baby machines for infertile couples has no merit. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 17:43:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I am for individual help/charity towards those pregnant women in need, not necessarily state help, though I would not be opposed to state help of those in desparate need wanting to save their baby.
I'm glad you feel that way. That would mean that you do not endorse churches that throws out single pregnant women because they are an embarrassment to the church?
It has happened on several occasions in the Pentecostal church (and similar congregations) in my home town and the surrounding area. And given the fact that the Swedish branch of Pentecostals and Baptists are more liberal than the American... I have no trouble imagining the situation for pregnant single women in Utah, or Texas. (feel free to add more states, as I only know these to be "worst")
quote:
In your country of Sweden, don't you have extremely high tax rates in order to pay for all the benefits you receive?
Yes we have (look up my previous post). And the tax is progressive.
Companies also pay tax for having employees, not only for the profit they make.
On the other hand, everyone get an equal opportunity to make the most of their abilities.
quote:
Does the government simply regulate business or actually own many businesses, including health care facilities? Or do they only own transportation facilities, airports, and so on. This is off the subject, but thought I'd ask.
It is a middle way between communism and capitalism, the state used to own all infrastructure (both railroad and roads, the majority of the electrical distribution systems and telephone, water and sanitation), and health care facilities. Since the eighties more and more parts are sold out to private business. But in most parts, I think that the private sector has proved less successful in providing public service. Several private health-care centres for senior citizens has proved to be disastrous, where the strive for profit ended in malpractice, and deaths.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2004 : 10:52:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Isn't this an adoption law problem? Let fix that problem, not kill the babies. Do we let young children die because families don't have funds for health care, or do we make a way for the funds? You see, Trish, I think it is a matter of will and belief. Pro Abortion people believe a child is not really a child until born, so that child has no rights. Killing that child in the womb is an option, but a pro lifer sees the fetus in the womb as a child with rights, especially the right to live.
Um, I think you need to check the numbers of children who die in America due to diseases that are related to malnutrition. What's being done to feed these kids? Not a lot. Yes, there are food stamps, however, what's the point in buying food at the local grocery if you can't keep your electric connected because of the lack of ability to pay for it. Also, there is the problem of those who sell food stamps in exchange for things like alcohol, drugs, etc. Let's figure out how to care for the kids that are already here. In a nation as rich as the US, why are kids suffering from malnutrition?
http:/www.cdc.gov/ (Search on malnutrition - The url doesn't copy properly here.)
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As soon as your baby is born, you realize by law that it would be murder to kill it, but to pull it's head out of the womb during birth, kill the baby and then deliver it was somehow not murder to abortionists. This is indeed a moral decision that results in the death of a living being. You simply choose not to care or believe that, while I do. This argument about compassion for the mother is based solely on your interpretation of when life begins, or when a child becomes a child. You just don't see that that child in the womb is your soon to be heir and daughter or son who will give you grandchildren, and take care of you when you're old.
You don't know much about 'partial-birth' abortion procedure do you? The 'partial-birth' abortion is not head first, it is not necessarily performed on what would be considered a viable fetus. The DNC is the form used as birth control by those who seek abortion. This usually occurs within the first three months of pregnancy. The partial-birth abortion is recommended by a doctor for medical reasons.
http://www.naral.org/facts/im_bans.cfm
I would suggest you do more than listen to what others say, and do a bit of research.
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Empathy? Yes. But you are talking about child birth, which is a part of nature. Millions have successfully gone through it, inspite of the pain.
And millions die in child birth too. What's your point?
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Not one aborted baby makes it. They all die. In some procedures, they are cut into pieces, sliced up within the womb to be removed.
I would suggest that you do a bit more research on what you are saying here. Again NARAL is a site that has quite a bit of information regarding the abortion process that is not sensationalized like much of what you are repeating here.
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Do you have empathy for that dying child? I heard the story from a former abortionist doctor who video taped (by sonigram) an abortion procedure done by a fellow doctor. When the instruments of death were inserted into the womb near the baby the baby moved to avoid them, but where could it go? When the instrument cut off the living baby's arm, you could see the mouth open like a scream...a silent scream. As the baby was cut apart into small pieces, do you think it felt pain? The doctor who had videoed this scene wanted the performing doctor to view it...he refused. After much urging, the abortionist doctor finally viewed it. He had aborted in the 10's of thousands of babies. After viewing that sonigram video once, he quit the abortion profession. Guess the reality of what he'd been doing hadn't been clear to him...it was just a "fetus", a mass of tissue. When he viewed the tape all that changed.
Once the brain stem is developed, the first portion of the brain to develop, since it is perhaps the oldest portion of the brain to evolve which conveys pain and has a bit to do with the autonomous brain functions. It takes the development of the rest of the brain for the fetus to be viable. This occurs around 6 months. However, the fetus at 6 months is not capable of surviving ex-utero.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
Good for him. However, I am concerned also with those who are here already. You apparently aren't.
Edited because the reply posted before I wanted it to. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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| Edited by - Trish on 03/15/2004 11:06:07 |
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