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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/30/2004 : 20:07:08 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
I would like to examine other examples of polystrate fossils. The ones in the talk.origins page appeared to be short or only having the trunk. I can easily see them being buried quickly by non-global-flood causes, but what about the fossils that are 30-40 feet tall? there was a picture of one that tall in the drdino site, but for some reason the pictures are no longer there.
Well, a Google Image search for 'fossilized tree -amber' turns up some possibilities, including what looks to be a 60' sequoia trunk. Photos of these trees appear to be rather scarce on the Web, though (there are probably many more in geology journals and textbooks).
If you're expecting to find some with branches intact, that'd be unlikely. The thin and delicate branches would probably get snapped off as the sediments around a tree compacted into rock. It'd be a much faster process than the destruction of the trunks themselves due to erosion and whatnot, which one can see happening in some of the Google photos.
About the tall trees, as you know well, from discussing the Mount St. Helens eruption, major catastrophes can bury very large things under tremendous amounts of stuff. A river which finds a new way to plummet off the edge of a thousand-foot plateau (due to erosion) could make very deep new lakes, which would fill with silt over time.
And as for Dr. Dino, as written in the posts above, he's been raided by the IRS, so what's avialable on his web site may be hit-or-miss for a while.
By the way, here are a few photos of the Joggins area, and I must say those cliffs are truly awesome. Knowing that those layers were once flat, it's obvious that a lot of work (in a physics sense) has gone on, canting them up like they are. I've also got to say that, given the context of this thread, "Fundy Geological Museum" takes on an entirely unintended meaning (no offense meant, Hippy). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2004 : 15:35:17 [Permalink]
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Dave:
Bay of Fundy, that's hilarious. Thanks for the sites. Also, I was wondering: water contains trace minerals and chemicals, right? And as surface conditions change on earth, wouldn't the presence and ratio of certain chemicals and minerals in the water change after time? Would it then be possible to tell if sedimentary layers are thousands of years apart by testing the rock for certain chemicals and minerals? While we may not be able to date layers, I would think that it would be possible to tell whether or not the layers were laid down all at once. Thoughts?
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
| Edited by - hippy4christ on 05/01/2004 15:47:57 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2004 : 19:03:13 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
Thanks for the sites.
Absolutely. As I said in another thread, I learn things in these threads, too.quote:
Also, I was wondering: water contains trace minerals and chemicals, right? And as surface conditions change on earth, wouldn't the presence and ratio of certain chemicals and minerals in the water change after time? Would it then be possible to tell if sedimentary layers are thousands of years apart by testing the rock for certain chemicals and minerals? While we may not be able to date layers, I would think that it would be possible to tell whether or not the layers were laid down all at once. Thoughts?
My thoughts are that the differing chemical make-ups of the rock layers are apparent without testing, just by looking at the different colors and textures of the rock. This isn't readily apparent with the photos of Joggins, linked above, but the Grand Canyon is good for this. On that page, you'll even find a cut-away image with the real colors of the layers added in. Plus, there's the fact that the sediments can be limestone, sandstone or shale (or whatever turned into schist). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2004 : 18:01:27 [Permalink]
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Hi,
I'm going to be moving soon, so my posts may become more sporadic (if that's even possible, haha.) There doesn't seem to be enough evidence for me to continue my current question, although I do specifically remember a picture of a 30 foot+ tree going through coal layers several feet apart on the drdino site before it started going haywire. If you see a study discussing that type fossil, let me know. I would like to discuss the evidence of civilizations during the flood time. If it can be shown that a civilization lived through the period of the flood without mentioning it that would be a serious blow to my side. Oh, another thing to keep an eye on, they're going to do another expedition to look for the Ark. Check it out at http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0427_040427_noahsark.html
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2004 : 20:26:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
. . . If you see a study discussing that type fossil, let me know. I would like to discuss the evidence of civilizations during the flood time. If it can be shown that a civilization lived through the period of the flood without mentioning it that would be a serious blow to my side. . .
Hippy
Hi Hippy. I hope your move goes well.
As for your question regarding the 'flood', let me talk about the world of the Ancient Near East for a bit. To be sure, The Flood was an important event in Mesopotamian socitey. It appears in the mythological works, such as the Standard Baylonian Gilgamesh story, or in the Atra-hasis myth. But it also shows up in the Sumerian King List. No doubt other references make oblique references to the flood here and there in Mesopotamia. The key (a key?), however, is the chronology. The Sumerian traditions give wildly different time-spans than the Biblical one. It is, to be blunt, impossible to reconcile.
If one wanted to look at things from a skeptic/atheist/scholarly point of view, one could say quite confidently that a tradition about a flood existed in the ancient Near East (like stories of foundlings being recovered from reed containers in the river), and that different societies-- like the Hebrews-- adopted such stories and turned them into moralistic stories to compel followers to do what the religion asked. Cynical? Yes. But impossible? Hardley. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2004 : 22:00:59 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
I'm going to be moving soon, so my posts may become more sporadic (if that's even possible, haha.)
As Cuneiformist said, good luck on the move. Hope it goes without incident. I'll be moving, as well, in just three weeks.quote:
There doesn't seem to be enough evidence for me to continue my current question, although I do specifically remember a picture of a 30 foot+ tree going through coal layers several feet apart on the drdino site before it started going haywire.
Here's the problem, Hippy: Kent Hovind has shown himself to be so unreliable with regard to facts and logic, that if he is the one who claimed that there exists a fossilized tree penetrating coal layers several feet apart, that he was the one who made such a claim is enough to require supporting evidence from another source.quote:
If you see a study discussing that type fossil, let me know.
I'll keep an eye out, but the more-famous ones don't seem to be of that caliber.quote:
I would like to discuss the evidence of civilizations during the flood time. If it can be shown that a civilization lived through the period of the flood without mentioning it that would be a serious blow to my side.
Okay, the Flood allegedly occured about 2,348 BC. The question to ask is this: would the descendants of Noah spread out quickly and pick up the exact same cultures of the people who inhabited an area before the Flood?
That's the question to ask because it appears that the Egyptian culture remained; Japanese pottery didn't drastically change; neolithic China was unchanged by the alleged event; the people of ancient India "took generations" to build their cities; etc. These are all cultures which spanned the time of the Flood.
If such a flood had occured, we should see (especially in the far East), a gap of some years between an old culture and a new one. The idea that from an initial three fertile couples, people could not only walk thousands of miles, but spawn renewed and vibrant civilizations along the way without leaving a large gap in time (several generations, at least) is unlikely.quote:
Oh, another thing to keep an eye on, they're going to do another expedition to look for the Ark. Check it out at http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0427_040427_noahsark.html
Yeah, that's been discussed elsewhere here. As with every previous expedition to find the Ark, this one is a wait-and-see situation. Just because they're going doesn't mean the thing has definitely been found, and there's been enough outright fraud in the Ark-finding business that any new voyages should be looked upon warily.
Plus National Geographic has screwed up before, so it wouldn't be surprising to see this new venture giving the society another black eye. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 18:50:56 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist:
Yes, it is possible that all flood stories are myths used by priesthoods to control the people. It is also possible that one of the flood stories is right, and that all of the others are corruptions of that story.
Dave:
I don't trust Hovind either, the only reason why I'm not completly droping the subject is because I saw the picture.
When we talk about civilizations and the Flood it is important to not leave out another important event that happened after the Flood: the Tower of Babel. Remember how it ends with everyone speaking a different language and going their own way? I have more to say.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2004 : 13:51:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
When we talk about civilizations and the Flood it is important to not leave out another important event that happened after the Flood: the Tower of Babel. Remember how it ends with everyone speaking a different language and going their own way? I have more to say.
The Babel story is an interesting one, though again, it cannot be reconciled with the known chronologies of the ancient world. If you're going to be a young earth creationist, you have a number of problems. For instance, as Dave W has already noted, a literal interpretation of the Bible puts the flood around the mid to late second millennium BCE. However, we already have more than one attested langauge before this time. In other words, is Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, and Elamite are all attested before the flood, and all continue after the flood, then the Babel story can't be right. Right? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2004 : 06:52:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist In other words, is Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, and Elamite are all attested before the flood, and all continue after the flood, then the Babel story can't be right. Right?
Not to mention the languages of the East Asia. The Chineese civilization is very old... |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 18:53:34 [Permalink]
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Hello,
Dave, having reviewed your sites, I am leveling the same charge at them as I have leveled at many other sites on the web: they show the scientists conclusions instead of their results. Saying that pottery and flint tools were found to indicate civilizations at such-and-such a time is not sufficient, I want to see the reports of the archeologists. What I'm looking for might go something like this: 'Today we dug up pottery. This pottery was unpainted, whereas the pottery we dug up a few days ago was painted. Seeing as geneological records also recovered at this site show a culture that wasn't nomadic, it has been suggested that this pottery and the previous pottery are from the same civilization, and that this community was increasing its knowledge.'
Or something like that.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 18:58:51 [Permalink]
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Hippy, I would suggest to you that because scientific journals are fairly expensive, it is unlikely you will find the archeological articles that go into those journals online, for free. Such articles will contain the details you are requiring.
There may, however, be a stack of them in the library in which you sit, however. The bigger the library, the more likely this will be. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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