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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2004 : 09:36:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Let's start with the beginning, with the most basic questions that can be asked.
1) Do I exist?
I've heard that some people simply don't believe in existence, but given the choice between existence and non-existence, existence seems more likely than non-existence. Therefore, if you don't believe that you exist, then our ways of thinking are too far apart to continue talking.
2) Does the world around me exist?
Since the Matrix, this question has become more valid. However, since I have no evidence either way, and it currently appears that the universe does exist, I choose to believe that the world around me exists as I see it. If you don't believe this, show me compelling evidence or leave me alone.
3)Where did the universe come from?
Here now we see some definite answers available, but mainly theories. All the theories can be divided into two groups: it was always here; or, it came into being. Still, we are trying to determine what was the First Cause. Logically, we know that in the infinite past the first cause was either intelligent or non-intelligent. Some say that the first cause was inert matter. Others say that the first cause was consiousness. If you accept my conclusion about the first two questions, feel free to join me in discussion of how intelligence originated.
Hippy
Why do you go directly from 'does the world around me exist' to 'where did the universe come from?' In the progression starting with the most basic question, that doesn't seem to follow right away.
Really, question #2 is off too. Shouldn't it be, assuming you answer #1 in the affirmative, "WHY do I exist?" |
-Chaloobi
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Arcanix_X
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 11:14:49 [Permalink]
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| I'm just going to jump over the first two questions since they are entirely speculative, with no possible true or false answer. However, concerning the last question i think the only logical answer at the time is the big bang theory. It laks very few phases, unlike the creationist theory which lacks any and all scientific proof. If anyone can proove me that god exists (other than paranoic and deluted idiots who claim sightings and other such idiocracy) then i'll believe. Untill then i'll keep close with Big Bang. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 16:29:39 [Permalink]
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Dave,
Okay, let's research to see how these trees were fossilized. I would think that a tree fossilized by a flood would be different that a tree fossilized by a volcano. As to multiple layers of coal: I've heard it said that the layers of organic material could have been laid down as the tide rose and fell. I'll try to research this too. Also, I was wondering: if a tree is fossilized, buried, and then the surrounding area erodes, why wouldn't the tree erode too?
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 16:40:27 [Permalink]
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Fossilization of trees involves the replacement of wood with minerals. No matter whether the tree were killed by flood or volcano, it'd still have to be buried and mineralized.
If there were a single, global flood, the tides wouldn't matter. It's not like coal only appears on mountainsides, where the water might lap up and down.
Finally, mineralized trees will erode at a different rate from whatever the surrounding material is. Again, this is why we can find fossilized clams on Mount Everest - they don't erode as quickly as the mountain is. This is why people can find bones sticking out of the ground in various places. Try the experiment I described for you, months ago, and show yourself that different substances erode at different rates.
I will look into a few of these things, myself, when I get time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 10:42:08 [Permalink]
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Drdino has been brought up on this thread as an expert. His site states:
quote:
Dr. Hovind's $250,000 Offer
Formerly $10,000 offered since 1990
I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution.* My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief.
Observed phenomena:
Most thinking people will agree that..
A highly ordered universe exists.
At least one planet in this complex universe contains an amazing variety of life forms.
Man appears to be the most advanced form of life on this planet.
Known options:
Choices of how the observed phenomena came into being..
The universe was created by God.
The universe always existed.
The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed.
Evolution has been acclaimed as being the only process capable of causing the observed phenomena.
Evolution is presented in our public school textbooks as a process that:
Brought time, space, and matter into existence from nothing.
As noted in blue, DrDino has not got a clue.
Neither evolutionists or real scientist think man is the "most evolved life form on this planet". To make such a bogus statement he must have absolutely no understanding of evolution.
Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the universe. I suppose that this is thrown in to ensure that the money is never paid. How can you show that changes in the biological populations formed the universe??
Well Dr. Dino you have once again convinced all of your missinformed followers that they should close their minds and live their lives with blinders on.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 11:16:30 [Permalink]
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I'm afraid I still haven't read the whole discussion yet, but mentioning the name Kent Hovind always makes me more than a little itchy (especially since I could refute a lot of his arguments using the answers in genesis site  ). But reading this article http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm really did it for me. Especially at this moment, when a collegue of mine just defended his Ph.D.-thesis this morning.
Maybe it's been posted in this forum before, in that case my apologies (although I seriously think this article can't be posted enough in forums like these).
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 17:55:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
But reading this article http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm really did it for me. Especially at this moment, when a collegue of mine just defended his Ph.D.-thesis this morning.
Maybe it's been posted in this forum before, in that case my apologies (although I seriously think this article can't be posted enough in forums like these).
I haven't read that link before, so I'm greatful you posted it. What a clown Kent Hotwind is...
And yes, I agree that this article can not be posted enough in forums like these. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 15:14:18 [Permalink]
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This just in:
quote:
IRS investigating creationist theme park in Pensacola
Associated Press
PENSACOLA, Fla. - Internal Revenue Service agents are investigating a man who runs a creationist theme park and museum here, saying he owes taxes on proceeds of more than $1 million.
IRS agents raided the Pensacola homes and businesses of Kent Hovind, 51. Calling himself "Dr. Dino," Hovind argues against evolution and for a Biblical view of creation in travels around the world, on the Internet, videos and in literature.
Agents on Wednesday confiscated computer and paper records of financial activity since 1997, but no charges have been filed against Hovind. He denied wrongdoing Friday.
http://newsobserver.com/24hour/nation/story/1295249p-8422005c.html
Enjoy... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Arcanix_X
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 18:44:25 [Permalink]
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Pleaaaaseeee let him go to jail and spend some quality time discussing with divinity. Could be useful to him if he finds it. Furthermore, if it has mercy it just might take away his stupidity and retardness.
oh yeah, a creationist theme park??? what sick sadistic parent would torture his kid in such a place? maybe they have a christ-go-round? |
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 23:57:24 [Permalink]
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| Actually the Matrix(first post) doesn't really make it more valid, if you look there are two topics about why the Matrix should definitly be treated as fiction. |
"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 06:21:45 [Permalink]
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dominic_dice wrote:quote:
Actually the Matrix(first post) doesn't really make it more valid, if you look there are two topics about why the Matrix should definitly be treated as fiction.
The first post in this thread is three months old. We've moved on from those questions, really. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 14:37:03 [Permalink]
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Dave:
Here's the talkorigins site I found about the fossil trees:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html
I'm having difficulty understanding their proof. Are they saying that each level of clay contains a different system of roots, hence there was time between each layer for plants to grow?
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 15:15:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Dave:
Here's the talkorigins site I found about the fossil trees:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html
I'm having difficulty understanding their proof. Are they saying that each level of clay contains a different system of roots, hence there was time between each layer for plants to grow?
Hippy
The way I read the article they didn't, but I only have a very basic understanding in this so correct me if I am wrong.
I think they want to point out that the layer below the polystrate fossils of the trees contain the roots of the trees. The layers above the layer with the roots contains the tree trunks.
So first a tree started to grow, with its roots in the soil. During the life of the tree several layers of sediment were quickly deposited (a process also observed today). After the tree died and everything is fossilized, you see a layer with roots, and a layer of coal (the fossilized tree trunks) on top of it. The layer with roots would not contain tree trunks. I'm not sure whether the layer with tree trunks would contain roots. I'd say this should be possible. Wouldn't know what would prevent new, young trees from rooting in the new layers.
If the layers were the result of a global flood, you wouldn't see a layer with roots and then a layer with roots and trunks above it. The result would be a complete mess of roots and trunks.
Does this make sense? And if so, am I right? Let me know if I need to clarify or correct.
By the way, I thought I have seen more readable articles about them, although I'm not so sure anymore where. Probably also on the talkorigins site. Since this article uses citations from a hundred years ago (to point out how long this is known already), an article which has the sole objective of explaining the 'polystrate trees' with modern language might be a bit clearer.
edited to add: I think the illustration Stratigraphy in association with an upright tree stump, Joggins, Nova Scotia is very clear. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 04/22/2004 15:28:09 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 07:32:08 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
I'm having difficulty understanding their proof. Are they saying that each level of clay contains a different system of roots, hence there was time between each layer for plants to grow?
Indeed, that is what they've been saying for over 100 years. According to the FAQ you linked to,Dawson records well over a dozen horizons with large upright trees, and smaller ones are even more common. Each "horizon" would be a different layer of soil, meaning the trees lived at different times.
It's also important to remember the context of the global-flood, polystrate-fossil argument. The claim is that because we saw tree trunks floating upright in Spirit Lake after Mount St. Helens blew up, a single global flood could explain all of these upright fossilized trees. But, to do so, an explanation for their uncrushed roots must be put forth (none have), and an explanation for why they're rooted in differently-aged soils (even among tress in one general location like Joggins) must be put forth (again, none have). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2004 : 15:55:03 [Permalink]
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Dave:
I would like to examine other examples of polystrate fossils. The ones in the talk.origins page appeared to be short or only having the trunk. I can easily see them being buried quickly by non-global-flood causes, but what about the fossils that are 30-40 feet tall? there was a picture of one that tall in the drdino site, but for some reason the pictures are no longer there.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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