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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2004 : 09:03:06 [Permalink]
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Hippy, Please don't use that Creationist site in any of your arguments. The site is mind-numbingly ignorant. I have included 3 of the points that are made on that site and commented on them.
quote:
10.Only land-dwelling, air-breathing animals had to be included on the ark (Gen. 7:15, "in which is the breath of life," 7:22). Noah did not need to bring all the thousands of insects varieties.
11.Many animals sleep, hibernate, or become very inactive during bad weather.
12.All animals (and people) were vegetarians before and during the Flood according to Gen. 1:20-30 with Gen. 9:3.
10. Insects breath air and are lang dwelling. Thousand of insect varieties?? Ferchrisake there are thousands of insects species on my property alone.
11. Animals do not hibernate or become inactive during 'bad weather'. Certain species hibernate during specific time periods such as the winter months.
12. Carnivours animals cannot properly digest plant materials. The teeth of carnivors are not able to be used effeciently for eating plants.
I won't even go into the people that are over 11 feet tall or 900 years old.
OK one more point.
quote:
8.God told Noah to bring two of each kind (seven of some), not of each species or variety. Noah had only two of the dog kind which would include the wolves, coyotes, foxes, mutts, etc. The "kind" grouping is probably closer to our modern family division in taxonomy, and would greatly reduce the number of animals on the ark. Animals have diversified into many varieties in the last 4400 years since the Flood. This diversification is not anything similar to great claims that the evolutionists teach.
No evolutionary scientist would ever be so bold as to say a single breeding pair of canines could diversify into wolves,coyotes and foxes in such a short period of time. I won't even mention jackels, african wild dogs, and dingos. You are proposing macro-evolution (I am using a creatinsist term) at a rate that no scientist would ever believe is possible. How can you possibly believe that animals could evolve to this extent in 4000 years and then turn around and say evolution could not possible happen. The utter lack of logic is nothing short of astounding!
It is impossible to argue with creationist about this because it is a belief system that is not based on fact. It is like me telling you water is wet and then you would site and extensive study of ducks and point out that testing has shown that a ducks back is dry even after it goes underwater - therefore water is not wet.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
| Edited by - furshur on 03/22/2004 08:15:28 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2004 : 09:31:49 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
Let's discuss points 19-21. The theory of Pangea has India connecting with Asia 50-55 million years ago. I certainly grant that there probably would have been much sedimentary deposits on the land that would turn into Mount Everest, but 3,000 feet? Plus whatever has eroded since 50 mya.
Call it 1,000 meters. There are over 10,000 meters of sediments in the Mississippi river delta, accumulated in less than 30,000 years. Sediments off the coasts of the Atlantic Ocean can reach up 8,000 meters or so.
Most interestingly, sediments East of India, where it joins Asia, are up to 9,000 meters thick today (much of it, perhaps, erosion from the Himalayas, which are still rising by 1 cm per year). Sediments to the West are over 1,000 meters thick.
See Sediment Thickness Map. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2004 : 19:51:07 [Permalink]
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Furshur: Like I told you earlier, if I don't endorse it, don't pin it on me. There probably isn't a single Creationist site on the Web that I completely agree with.
Dave: You have satisfactorily answered my questions as regards the presence of sediments on top of mountains. Next question: How do fossils survive millions of years of earth movements? I've always heard that they're so fragile that archeologists unearth them with paint brushes. You would probably say that a great number of fossils are destroyed by earth movements, but I wonder if any fossil could survive millions of years of earth movements. Let's look at the Everest example in particular: how do marine exoskeletons (which I would imagine are much more fragile than bones) survive 50 million years of India slamming into Asia?
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2004 : 20:49:30 [Permalink]
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| Hippy, if those sediments, which turn into rock relatively quickly, were constantly churning or otherwise being sifted, I would agree we would find no fossils. However, for the most part, it is large slabs of rock which are simply being lifted by the collision of India with Asia. Just like you can lift a heavy grocery bag without breaking the eggs on top, bedrock can lift large pieces of sedimentary rock without damage (except at the edges, of course - along fault lines). |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2004 : 15:05:31 [Permalink]
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Hippy said:
quote:
Furshur: Like I told you earlier, if I don't endorse it, don't pin it on me. There probably isn't a single Creationist site on the Web that I completely agree with.
Man are you slippery!
OK, this site is a site that you brought up. It is a site that you have been refering to, point by point.
Do you agee with any of the points on http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=5
that you have been refering to????
Could you let me know which of the points you feel are accurate.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2004 : 18:34:20 [Permalink]
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Furshur: on the dr. dino site I would agree with points 1, 2, 9, and 14-21.
Dave: Your response has given me several questions.
1) Is there a site that discusses the scenario which you have presented?
2) What about vibrations from earthquakes? India is supposed to have been going faster than any other tectonic plate in history when it collided with Asia. Wouldn't that mean that the very area where mountains were forming would be subject to some of the most violent earthquakes in history?
a) Has a study been done proving that fossils can survive earth vibrations?
b) Is there an estimate of what magnitude of earthquakes could have been produced by the collision?
c) Is there an estimate of how often strong earthquakes occur? In my newspaper, every Sunday, they have an article reporting some of the major natural occurences of the week. Usually, there have been several earthquakes around the globe every week. Most of them aren't very big, but still, they happen all the time.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2004 : 23:12:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Furshur: on the dr. dino site I would agree with points 1, 2, 9, and 14-21.
If it's any help, here are some of my thoughts on those points:1. Over 250 Flood legends from all parts of the world have been found. Most have similarities to the Genesis story. Oh, really? It doesn't seem that way to me. For example, from the Pygymies, we hear:Chameleon heard a strange noise, like water running, in a tree, but at that time there was no water in the world. He cut open the trunk, and water came out in a great flood that spread all over the earth. The first human couple emerged with the water. Doesn't sound much like Genesis, does it?2. Noah's ark was built only to float, not to sail anywhere. Many ark scholars believe that the ark was a "barge" shape, not a pointed "boat" shape. This would greatly increase the cargo capacity. Scoffers have pointed out that the largest sailing ships were less than 300 feet because of the problem of twisting and flexing the boat. These ships had giant masts on them and sails to catch the wind. Noah's ark need neither of those and therefore had far less torsional stress. Until, of course, it crests a wave in world-encompassing flood waters. The idea that the water would peacefully just rise in level is unsupported.9. Noah did not have to get the animals. God brought them to him (Gen. 6:20, "shall come to thee"). Great. Why bother trying to apply science to the story of the Flood at all? "God did it" answers all questions equally well.14. The Bible says that the highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits of water. This is half the height of the ark. The ark was safe from scraping bottom at all times. Nine-tenths of an iceberg is submerged, and they're pretty damn stable. How does Hovind know that the ark never sat more than halfway into the water?15. The large mountains, as we have them today, did not exist until after the Flood when "the mountains arose and the valleys sank down" (Ps. 104:5-9, Gen. 8:3-8). Psalm 104 is about the Earth's creation, not about the Flood, which occured much later. Genesis 8 says that mountains were already in existence when the waters receeded.16. There is enough water in the oceans right now to cover the earth 8,000 feet deep if the surface of the earth were smooth. There is, indeed, enough water to cover the Earth to a depth of 8,335 feet if the Earth were smooth, but so what? The Bible says that the Earth was not smooth (covered in points 14 and 15, above), and Mt. Everest is over 29,000 feet high.17. Many claim to have seen the ark in recent times in the area in which the Bible says it landed. There are two primary schools of thought about the actual site of the ark (see my Creation Seminar Part 3 video for more on this). Much energy and time has been expended to prove both views. Some believe the ark is on Mt. Ararat, covered by snow (CBS showed a one-hour special in 1993 about this site). The other group believes the ark is seventeen miles south of Mt. Ararat in a valley called "the valley of eight" (8 souls on the ark). The Bible says the ark landed in the "mountains" of Ararat, not necessarily on the mountain itself. Aside from the obvious pitch to buy Hovind's tapes (you'll note that real scientists don't force people to buy their books in order to get the information), nobody's ever been able to prove that the ark even exists. The confusion over where it might be is a case in point, and the fact that neither "view" has been proven demonstra |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2004 : 21:24:57 [Permalink]
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Dave: I'll make a few responses, but I'll be studying your material for the next few days.
On your response to point 9: I won't say "God did it" unless the Bible says that God did it. I might still say "God could have done it" but I try not to do that unless the scientific data for a particular event is shaky.
Tar, as I understand it, is a thick liquid. This would have insulated the fossils. If you can give me an example of fossils unearthed in rock near an area where major earthquakes have been recorded, I'll believe you. I will also be looking for evidence of this nature.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2004 : 22:18:55 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
Dave: I'll make a few responses, but I'll be studying your material for the next few days.
Take all the time you need, please.quote:
On your response to point 9: I won't say "God did it" unless the Bible says that God did it.
Okay, well nix Hovind's idea that God brought the animals to Noah, since the Bible doesn't say that. The animals, instead, homed in on the boat on their own, apparently.quote:
I might still say "God could have done it" but I try not to do that unless the scientific data for a particular event is shaky.
Technically, the scientific data for a global flood is entirely absent.quote:
Tar, as I understand it, is a thick liquid. This would have insulated the fossils. If you can give me an example of fossils unearthed in rock near an area where major earthquakes have been recorded, I'll believe you. I will also be looking for evidence of this nature.
Okay, how about on Mt. Everest, then? That's the first place that comes to mind, since there have been strong earthquakes recorded in the vicinity, and we know there are undestroyed fossils on the mountain. Earthquakes there prior to the data we have may have even been stronger.
And here is a PDF file which describes some of the thousands of fossils recovered during construction of the Los Angeles Red Line subway. The fossils included glass scallops, starfish, a very nice looking skeleton of a deep-sea smelt, some extinct camel and mastodon teeth, teeth and bones of ground sloths and bison, trees (cottonwood, redwood, and incense cedar), and pollen. About 100 different marine species were represented. The pictures within the file all appear to be of fossils in rock. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 18:47:35 [Permalink]
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Dave: I'll the accept the possibility that fossils survive earth movements. Here I have several pictures of fossilized trees going through different layers of sedimentary rock. www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=16 There are also pictures of petrified trees going through different layers of coal. Doesn't this put a hole in the idea the sediment and coal layers were formed hundreds of thousands of years apart?
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 22:03:43 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
Here I have several pictures of fossilized trees going through different layers of sedimentary rock. www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=16 There are also pictures of petrified trees going through different layers of coal. Doesn't this put a hole in the idea the sediment and coal layers were formed hundreds of thousands of years apart?
Not at all. Sedimentation, plant growth (dead plants make coal), and erosion go on all the time in various places, and those locations change over time. The idea that these processes are in any way static, or even progress at uniform rates, is wrong.
The very idea of different layers of coal argues against a single, global flood as sole explanation for all geologic features, anyway, while multiple cycles of plant growth followed by sedimentation explain them quite well (say, as a river changes course). Add fossilized trees into the mix, and mostly what is needed is a large event to first bury and petrify a tree (say, a volcanic eruption), followed by an erosive period to expose the still-upright fossil tree, then followed by the cyclic plants-and-sediments periods, building up layers around the tree.
Some fossilized trees are hollow, and also filled with sediments inside. I believe this is due to the outer layers mineralizing while the interior rots (or is preferrentialy eroded at a later date, after exposure of the tree to the elements). Some include - inside - fossilized animals buried between layers of sediment. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 15:02:44 [Permalink]
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Dave:
Some of the trees were from Germany, France, Tenessee and Wyoming. I'm under the impression that these are not volcano-prone areas. Can you prove that there once were volcanoes there? Can either of us say more than "it could have happened my way"?
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 16:16:33 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
Some of the trees were from Germany, France, Tenessee and Wyoming. I'm under the impression that these are not volcano-prone areas. Can you prove that there once were volcanoes there?
No, but other explanations pertain to other areas. Mine was just a single example of what could happen in one particular instance ("say" being shorthand for "for one example"), and not a generality.quote:
Can either of us say more than "it could have happened my way"?
Yes, I can state that your preferred explanation - a single, worldwide event that created all of the major geological features we see today - completely fails to explain multiple layer of coal, fossils inside of other fossils, the apparent ages of many features, and many more facts. Unless, of course, you invoke God as part of the explanation, in that He worked down in the details to make things look as they do (please quote chapter and verse on fossilized trees, specifically the ones in Yellowstone Park - a site of much volcanic activity in ages gone by).
"My way" involves a large set of different explanations, based upon whatever evidence happens to be available. It includes "I don't know" as a possible answer, which is preferred over an answer without basis in fact. It does not involve assuming an answer, and then force-fitting all the evidence to make that answer work, as yours does.
Does the evidence show that every fossilized tree, worldwide, was fossilized at the same time? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 20:51:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Let's start with the beginning, with the most basic questions that can be asked.
1) Do I exist?
2) Does the world around me exist?
Simple. If you put an 'X' on your nose and look in the mirror, then you exist. If others notice it as you walk around, then they and the world exists.
( personaly I couldn't care less, I live in my own big world   ) 
quote:
3)Where did the universe come from?
Why is that important? I would think, only to a scientist maybe or others with a real curiousity for the subject but for average everyday living, I don't see the nessesity to know. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 08:12:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Dave:
Some of the trees were from Germany, France, Tenessee and Wyoming. I'm under the impression that these are not volcano-prone areas. Can you prove that there once were volcanoes there? Can either of us say more than "it could have happened my way"?
Hippy
Sweden isn't currently prone to volcanic activity. However, volcanic rock is not uncommon in our hills. Layers of volcanic rock that is "shielding" sedimentary layers beneath from erosion. All that rock comes from somewhere... The surrounding areas of my home town is a geologist's wet dream.
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