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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2002 : 08:47:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
]I've done quite a bit of reading Mithra and I haven't seen one reference to the "Sermon on the Mount"
The Sermon on the mount-with a different, more noble, set of 'who is blessed' right down to the loaves and fishes is a normal Mithrain/Zoroasterian mass. They held it every Sunday, which was their sabbath day as opposed to Saturday which the Jews insist on. The Zoroasterians are still holding them to this day. You can't have done that much reading-or do you just confine yourself to web searchs?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 09:00:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
I can only find reference online of Horus giving a Sermon on the Mount. There is also some about Buddha possibly having given some sort of speech on his favorite "mount".
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Sum Ergo Cogito
It was common practice in the middle east. You needed the mountain to get closer to god/sun. If you didn't have one handy you had to build one, these artificial "mounts" are called ziggurats. See: Tower of Babel. They pre-date Zoroasterism and were incorporated into it. They would keep eternal flames lite on top of theirs.
Zoroasterism evolved exactly along the lines Lars was talking about when he pointed out that that was the standard way religions come about and absorbed these earlier practices.
The Magi also studied the stars from the tops of these same ziggurats, to see when the second coming would happen.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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Wolfgang_faust
Skeptic Friend
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 09:37:46 [Permalink]
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I had to say yes for a couple of reasons. First of all he is mentioned by Josephus once. I don't think he was who the Bible made him out to be. There are a couple of really good books on this. On eis "Jesus and Budda" by Marcus Borg. He basically shows how the teaching of Jesus were almost identicle to the teachings of Budda. There is a line of thought out there that says that in the missing years of Jesus, from the time he was 12 until the time he was 30, he was studying with Buddist monks. That would explain the similarities in their teachings. As far as the idea that he was made up goes, I can agree with that to a point. I believe that a lot of what is said about who he was and what he did was made up. Another great book on this is, "The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Christanity" by Hyam McCoby. This one may be hard to find, but I think you can order it from Barnes and Noble. His book teaches that Paul basically created a new religion that Jesus would not have supported. He gave attributes to Jesus that he did not have. To much to go into. I am interested in what you think or if any of you have read either of these books.
Add value to every day, Sharpen your skills, your understanding |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 11:31:09 [Permalink]
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To Atomic,I was at work when I posted that bit on Mithra sorry it didn't give credit to the source,I will get it as soon as I can.However, my point was that since you and Slater seem to have access to documents that mere mortals can't get thier hands on, perhaps,since you made the claim that Jesus plagiarized Mithra,you would be so kind as to tell us where?But don't bother if merely a rehashing of the other nonsense I saw on this thread about Budda giving a sermon on a mountain,therefore,Jesus copied Budda(?).I suppose by that same logic[sic] we could reason "Ceasar was a powerful General,He crossed a river(the Rubicon).George Washington also was said to be a powerful General and he was claimed to also have crossed a river(the Delaware)therefore Washington is a myth because Ceasar did his first.  However Slater actually had some very helpful info on proving my point about how the NT hasn't "borrowed" it's history or theology from any pagan source quote:
It was common practice in the middle east. You needed the mountain to get closer to god/sun. If you didn't have one handy you had to build one, these artificial "mounts" are called ziggurats. See: Tower of Babel. They pre-date Zoroasterism and were incorporated into it. They would keep eternal flames lite on top of theirs.(end of Slater).
Whoever sacrifices to the Sun that is immortal, radiant, (and) swift-horsed, in order to withstand darkness, to withstand the daevas, the progeny of darkness, to withstand the theives and robbers, to withstand the sorcerers and the enchantresses, to withstand death that creeps on,
He sacrifices to Ahura Mazda, he sacrifices to the Amesha Spentas, he sacrifices to his own soul.
He propitiates all heavenly and earthly Yazads, who sacrifices to the Sun that is immortal, radiant, swift-horsed.
to the Sun that is immortal, radiant, swift-horsed.
15.
I shall sacrifice to Mithra of wide cattle pastures, who has a thousand ears, ten thousand eyes. I shall sacrifice to his mace, well aimed against the skulls of the Daevas, Mithra of wide cattle pastures. And I shall sacrifice to that friendship which is the best of friendships, that between the Moon and the Sun.
16.
For his splendor and fortune I shall sacrifice to him with audible worship, the immortal, radiant, swift-horsed Sun, with libations. We sacrifice to the immortal, radiant, swift-horsed Sun, with milk provided with Haoma, with the Barsom, with skill of tongue, and with the spell, and with word, and with deeds, and with libations, and with rightly spoken words.
Of whomsoever among beings Ahura Mazda has known the excellence (lit. something better) in Yasna-sacrifice in accordance with Asha, to both these males and females we sacrifice.
(Recite quietly:) ....
Y.A.V.(2)
I desire worship and adoration and strength and force for the immortal, radiant, swift-horsed Sun.
17.
I bless the sacrifice ... of the immortal, radiant, swift-horsed Sun.
We sacrifice to the immortal, radiant, swift-horsed Sun.
This is a qoute from the Zoarasterism prayer book"Khora Avesta" and as you can see it's pagan through and through.Mithra to them wasn't a 'historic personage it was another name for the god contracts,and the SUN.Now any body with half a brain when they read the NT sees a Jewish worldview.There is no way in hell there borrowing from idol,and nature worshiping pagans.Thanks Slater
Edited by - darwin alogos on 03/13/2002 11:44:03 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 11:59:46 [Permalink]
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Man, that was a good read (the link I posted earlier). For those too lazy to check it out, I just have to post some highlights! This paper is referenced at the site.
quote:
Forgery during the first centuries of the Church's existence was admittedly rampant, so common in fact that a new phrase was coined to describe it: "pious fraud." Such prevarication is confessed to repeatedly in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Some of the "great" church fathers, such as Eusebius13, were determined by their own peers to be unbelievable liars who regularly wrote their own fictions of what "the Lord" said and did during "his" alleged sojourn upon the earth.
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The birthdate of Jesus is depicted as having taken place at different times. His birth and childhood are not mentioned in "Mark," and although he is claimed in "Matthew" and "Luke" to have been "born of a virgin," his lineage is traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill prophecy." He is said in the first three (Synoptic) gospels to have taught for one year before he died, while in "John" the number is three years. "Matthew" relates that Jesus delivered "The Sermon on the Mount" before "the multitudes," while "Luke" says it was a private talk given only to the disciples. The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each other, and no one states how old he was when he died.
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Eminent Hellenistic Jewish historian and philosopher Philo (20 B.C.E.-50 C.E.), alive at the purported time of Jesus, makes no mention of him. Nor do any of the some 40 other historians who wrote during the first one to two centuries of the Common Era. "Enough of the writings of [these] authors . . . remain to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Their silence is deafening testimony against the historicizers.
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The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:38
Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."38aa
He was of royal descent.
He crushed a serpent's head.
He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.38a
He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."38b
He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
He was transfigured on a mount.
Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.38c
He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven."
Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd"39, the "Carpenter"40, the "Infinite and Everlasting."40a
He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World."
quote:
The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares the following in common with Jesus:
Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger42, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.43
He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.44
Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."
He had 12 disciples.
He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
He walked on water.
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys").45
Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."46
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.
In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child"48 - and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra49, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced50. Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to water to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier pagan mystery religions.
quote:
Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:
Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
quote:
The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are many. Indeed, Massey finds over 100 similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors, and Graves, who includes the various noncanonical gospels in his analysis, lists over 300 likenesses. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna," which reveals its relation to '"Christ." It should also be noted that, like the Jewish godman, many people have believed in a historical, carnalized Krishna.53
Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") 53a
His father was a carpenter.54
His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.54a
He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.55
He was of royal descent.
He was baptized in the River Ganges.55a
He worked miracles and wonders.
He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.
Kri |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 12:07:58 [Permalink]
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Are you selecting just the parts of Mithraism that appear different and are skipping the parts that are identical? Any web search with minimal reading will turn up the parts that are identical. In fact, here on SFN I posted some links to such sites.
And as you see above TD has come up with quite a bit.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 13:10:59 [Permalink]
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 Gee TD that site doesn't like exaggerate a little does it?I mean you really expect me fall over and believe this fool who obviously knows nothing of church history or comparative religions.Look do your self a favor and least follow the practice of some of your more educated skeptics i.e. Antony Flew and Gerd Ludemann in thier respective debates with Chritian Apologest they don't insult the listeners with the ridicules views held by this page and that other winner you refered to(Flew's debate:DID JESUS RISE FROM THE DEAD? THE RESURRECTION DEBATE,Terry L. MIETHE Ed.Harper&Row, Pub.,Inc.,10E.53rd St. N.Y.,N.Y.1987;Ludemann's:JESUS'RESURRECTION FACT OR FIGMENT?eD.Paul Copan.IVP Press.Downers Grove,Ill.2000.)
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 13:42:22 [Permalink]
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I have found similar infoemation from other sources. Slater quoted several books and i posted a good number of URLs supporting exactly what TD posted. Perhaps you should try checking out non-Christian sources without the obvious bias going in that Jesus is exactly like he is depicted in the Bible.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 17:20:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gee TD that site doesn't like exaggerate a little does it?
Gee, I don't know. It has 120 footnotes, so I'm sure if we wanted to, we could check his/her references. I'm guessing there isn't much exaggeration.
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I mean you really expect me fall over and believe this fool...
I couldn't care less what you believe. You obviously have no intention of even pretending to look at arguments objectively, so I'm posting here for other people's benefit.
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..who obviously knows nothing of church history or comparative religions.
Umm, riiight... (insert :rolleyes: graphic here)
I'm willing to bet money the author is more knowledgeable than you.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 18:20:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
You obviously have no intention of even pretending to look at arguments objectively, so I'm posting here for other people's benefit.
Speaking as one of those other people, thank you. Because this brings up the interesting matter of the similarities between Horus and Mithra. At one point around 750BCE Mithra had a "personality change." It is assumed that it was because of the influence of Zoroaster...but this would imply that it was an Egyptian influence and not a Presian that caused this change.
Finding the source of parallel myths is tricky. There's usually more politics than religion involved.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 21:00:26 [Permalink]
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"Thae book of the genealogy Jesus [the]Messiah,the Son of David,the Son of Abraham"(MT.1:1).Now you notice how the first verse in the first book of the NT immidiately conjurs concepts of :Apollonius;Dionysus;Budda;and of course Mithra,NOT!Have you folks even read the NT?I seriously doubt it.If you had you couldn't even come close to saying the stuff you are saying.For example,the above verse clearly demonstrates the writer is talking about Jewish Messiah.In 2:6 he qoutes Micah 5:2(now I know your not going to believe he's telling the truth,but you should aleast be honest enough to say "this definitly not of Pagan origins").On to the"Sermon on the Mount"6:7 "And when you pray,do not use vain repetitions AS THE HEATHEN DO"sounds like Hail Mary,and Buddist prayer wheels to me,how can anyone in thier right mind attribute these sayings to "sun gods"and hindu reformers?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 21:30:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
"And when you pray,do not use vain repetitions AS THE HEATHEN DO"
Am I the only one that finds this to be ironic?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 23:04:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Thae book of the genealogy Jesus [the]Messiah,the Son of David,the Son of Abraham"(MT.1:1)...
The first story starts with Magi, but then we've repeated this over and over. Is this you DA or is one of your friends usings your password? You know very well that most of us are "versed" in the bible, so this can't be you, can it? Or are you pulling a Memento on us?
And who ever you are, are you calling Roman Catholics "heathens" because they recite the rosary?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel
Edited by - slater on 03/13/2002 23:10:08 |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 00:08:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."
That should be "Anpu" or "Inpw," which was the ancient Egyptian version of Anubis' name.
http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/e-dict2.htm
Interestingly, in the movie The Mummy Returns, when the Rock calls to the god Anubis, you can hear him say, "Ahn-poo!"
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Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.
I looked in Raymond O. Faulkner's A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian, and the closest that I could find to "KRST" was
 ,
which means "burial."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0900416327/qid=1016089392/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_71_1/002-0639414-1842455
Mummies were anointed with oils and such, but that's the only connection I see between "burial" and "anointed one."
Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs don't represent vowels, so that's why it's "KRST." Read more about the language here:
http://www.friesian.com/egypt.htm
Let's look at the footnotes. Gerald Massey, eh? His The Egyptian Book of the Dead was originally published in 1907, and Egyptology has advanced quite a bit since then.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564598918/qid=1016088279/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/002-0639414-1842455
About Gerald Massey:
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/m/a/massey_g.htm
Ian Andreas Miller. My site. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 01:10:18 [Permalink]
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...And now I actually have something to add.
First: Mr. Faust, I regret to inform you that "The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Christianity" by Hyam McCoby was out of print when last I checked, so if any of you find it in a used book store, grab it. It is a fascinating read.
Next: Mr. Alogos, there is very little of Judaism in the New Testament.
First and foremost, the Jews were (and still are, I believe) waiting for a king, not a priest.
Second, the New Testament is very biased towards the Romans, and actually condemns many Jewish leaders.
Third, the Pharisees (who I think later became known as Rabbis), which Jesus (if he existed) and Paul (if he were telling the truth) would have been, were trained in logic and rhetoric. There is very little in these books that seems to have come from a logical mind (and yes, I have read the Bible, that's how I can make this claim).
Ask any Rabbi whether Jesus actually was a "Jewish Messiah," you might be surprised, eh?
-me. |
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