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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2002 : 08:40:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
there is very little of Judaism in the New Testament.
This is one of the reasons that I strongly suspect the NT is of Roman authorship.
The characters in it never express Jewish attitudes or use Jewish logic. But they will sometimes say things which turn out to be direct quotes from the OT, never crediting the OT (as any Jew would do). This dialogue was obviously lifted to make them sound Jewish while all the time they are telling you to obey the Romans, hate the Jews, and don't worry about following the law god gave to Moses because the never changing god has changed his mind, he wants you to follow Roman civil law instead.
And Jesus is the true Messiah--except he didn't free the Jews as the messiah job description states. In fact Israel got itself wiped from the face of the Earth. Messiah no longer means what the Jews say that it does, the Persians have the correct meaning..amen.
Never try to write a book by committe unless you have an Emperor who will kill anyone who criticizes the patch work quilt you make of it.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 09:01:57 [Permalink]
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And as for the original Christ. The Greek title was a common one for saviour gods.
But I still think that Jesus Christ got his title from Apollonius of Tyana's Krishna. The reasons I lean in that direction rather than the Egyptian is that his group were called Christians. In fact, in English untill the 19th century, the name Krishna was spelled Christna. His people were in the right place (Rome and the eastern Med.) at the right time, they behaved like Catholic legend says that the early Christians behaved, and the used the symbol of Pisces which in those days was a single fish made from segments of the circumference of a circle. Pisces being the sign of rebirth of Krishna on the first of spring, not the silly annagram todays fundies claim.
Although a case can be made for the Egyptian since in the first century the Romans of Rome itself had a long lived Egyptian "fad" (clothing and design, etc. Just like the fads we have today)
Where ever the title Christ came from no Jew would have been caught dead using it. It would have been blasphemy in their strict religion.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 11:10:08 [Permalink]
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Setting details about origins of the word "Christ", similarities between other deities, etc., aside for a moment, there is one particular damning point against the truth of the NT that Slater has brought up numerous times, and was mentioned by the author in the link that I most recently provided that I would love to hear you, Darwin Alogos, address. The point is this:
Jesus is said to have walked on water, raised the dead, turned water into wine, heal the blind with mud and spit, mass produced food out of thin air, and to have himself been raised from the dead. When he died, the sky is said to have darkened, the dead were said to walk the streets, and the earth shook.
All of these wonderous happenings occured in front of an audience of some sort (except his own resurrection).
Now please tell me, using logic and common sense reasoning, how all of this could have taken place, and not a single word of any of it was recording in any other way than the NT.
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 03/14/2002 11:10:50 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 14:08:12 [Permalink]
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To TD,thats easy just look the the Jewish polemics against Christianty you see many references to Christ's miracles but of course they claim they were done through sorcery.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 17:49:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
To TD,thats easy just look the the Jewish polemics against Christianty you see many references to Christ's miracles but of course they claim they were done through sorcery.
Pardon my ignorance, but...
quote:
JEWISH POLEMICS is a collection of essays written over the past ten years or so by the well-known American rabbi, professor, and communal leader Arthur Hertzberg.
How exactly does this address my question?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 19:06:45 [Permalink]
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A polemic is just an argument. There are several Jewish ones about Jesus that date from around the fall of the Roman Empire. They say that Mary had a bastard child named Jesus by a Roman soldier who grew up to have bawdy adventures. They are in responce to the Imperial law that demanded that they become Christians.
I've never heard of any earlier than these.
But back to the hieroglyphic mentioned above. Even if it didn't mean 'the anointed' coundn't a case be made because it sounded exactly like the common Greek word that did?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 19:10:27 [Permalink]
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 Ooops,To TD,I'm sorry but the references that I'm refering to are in a book in my car that at present time is in the shop.I'm thinking that they refer to thepolemics contained in the Babylonia Talmund
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 20:49:15 [Permalink]
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Next: Mr. Alogos, there is very little of Judaism in the New Testament.
First and foremost, the Jews were (and still are, I believe) waiting for a king, not a priest.
Second, the New Testament is very biased towards the Romans, and actually condemns many Jewish leaders.
Third, the Pharisees (who I think later became known as Rabbis), which Jesus (if he existed) and Paul (if he were telling the truth) would have been, were trained in logic and rhetoric. There is very little in these books that seems to have come from a logical mind (and yes, I have read the Bible, that's how I can make this claim).
Ask any Rabbi whether Jesus actually was a "Jewish Messiah," you might be surprised, eh?
-me.
To Boron10,As far as there being "very little Judaism in the NT" I beg to differ.In my blurb I quoted the first verse in the first book of the NT Mt 1:1 and said Jesus was "the Son David,and the Son of Abraham" I don't see how you could more Jewish than that?In Luke 2:21-24 he records how on the"eighth day" Jesus was taken to the temple to be circumcised.The NT is full of Jewish references,I challange to reread it and just hilight every time you see a discription of pre AD 70 1st century life in Israel.I have to go now but I promise to address your other two points.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 21:00:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
In Luke 2:21-24 he records how on the"eighth day" Jesus was taken to the temple to be circumcised.The NT is full of Jewish references,
The first Jewish thing Jesus does is be circumcised. The second Jewish thing is he has Passover dinner with his friends-then he is killed the next morning.
Nothing he does in between is Jewish in nature or origin.
See how many baptized Jews you can find in the history of the world.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 02:14:18 [Permalink]
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See how many baptized Jews you can find in the history of the world.
On the contrary Slater:-------
The first truth is that real Christianity is not a pagan, anti-Semitic religion, but the gathering together of both Jewish and Gentile believers to the Jewish Messiah and to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Immersion, adapted from an 18th century Mishnah
The second truth is that the commitment of a believer in Jesus is not to any group, but to a Person -- the Messiah himself. Any group loyalty that we believers feel and practice stems from our love for the Messiah and his teachings. The love and unity we feel for one another comes because of him and through his enabling power in our lives.
Third, baptism is as Jewish as mikveh! The Hebrew word tevilah (translated "immersion") is used in the benediction recited during the mikveh ritual. Certainly no one would dispute that mikveh is a Jewish ceremony. The ritual washings and cleansings commanded in Torah and the other writings formed the basis for the rabbinical mikveh laws. Our ancient sages who formulated these rules agreed and emphasized that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that as the mikveh cleanses the unclean, so does the Holy One cleanse Israel (My 8:9). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently in the soil of these Jewish scriptures and traditions. That is, both baptism and mikveh depict by an outward act the inward transaction of faith; and both declare that only the Holy One has the power to cleanse men's hearts and lives.
Ceremonial Washings Pre-date Mikveh
In the Torah we read that before the giving of the Law on Mount Sinai, God commanded the people to wash their clothing as a symbolic act of purification (Exodus 19:11).
Leviticus 8:6 records the washing of Aaron and his sons when they were ordained as priests to minister in the holy tabernacle. Again, in Leviticus 16:4, God commanded Aaron to wash himself before and after he ministered in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement.
Numbers 19 gives explicit instructions for purification after defilement by a dead body. After bathing and washing his clothes, the "unclean" person had to be sprinkled with fresh water combined with ashes from a sacrificed animal. The Israelites also used this "water of cleansing" to purify themselves and their plunder after they battled with the Midianites (Numbers 31:21-24).
The Torah also commanded ritual purification for both men and women who had been "defiled" by flows of various body fluids, or who had been healed of leprosy.
All these water rituals formed the basis for the Jewish mikveh laws. While the Hebrew word mikveh means literally "a collection or gathering together," in this context it refers to a gathering or pool of water for the purpose of ritual cleansing. The earliest Biblical uses of the word "mikveh" occur in I Kings 7:23ff. and its Parallel passage in 11 Chronicles 4:2ff. These verses describe the huge, circular "Sea of Solomon," constructed along with the first Temple for the priests to carry out their ceremonial washing.
Mikveh the Forerunner of Baptism
Along with the purposes already mentioned in the Torah, another use of symbolic purification by water became part of early Jewish tradition. This was immersion or baptism for Gentile converts to Judaism. Though the only Biblical requirement for entrance into the covenant was circumcision, baptism became an added requisite. No one knows exactly when or by whom the requirements were changed to include baptism, but it was before the time of Jesus. We know this, because debates on the subject of proselyte baptism are recorded between rabbinic schools of Shammai and Hillel, both contemporaries of Jesus. Whereas the school of Shammai stressed circumcision as the point of transition, the Hillelites considered baptism most important because it portrayed spiritual cleansing and the beginning of a new life. Ultimately the Hillelite view prevailed, as is reflected in the Talmudic writings. Maimonides, that greatly revered 12th century Jewish scholar, summed up all Talmudic tradition concerning converts to Judaism as follows.
"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised quote:
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 06:33:36 [Permalink]
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That's silly. This is basically saying that because the Jewish people took baths and went swimming, that this is the same as Baptism.
Baptism is a religious water ritual, but not all religious water rituals are Baptism.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 09:51:51 [Permalink]
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Are you trying to say that Jesus washed off his menstrual bood? Because that's the type of ceremony you are talking about.
Anyway the bible clearly says that he was baptized which is nothing like any of the above mentioned and nothing like anything a Jew would even dream of doing.
No Jews have been baptized.
EVERY Mithrain has been baptized.
And the bible gets even worse than that.
The god of baptism is Oannes (Ea) the water god. In Greek that's Ioannes and in Hebrew Yohannan.
In English it is spelled JOHN.
Not only was the reborn Mithra, the Sol invictus, Jesus baptized but he was baptized by the very god himself!
The sun god and the water god honoring each other. Every Mithrain in the Roman legion would have gone,"Oooooooh!" when they heard that.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 19:12:00 [Permalink]
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 TO Slater and TD,read very carefully again the above post,it states very clearly that baptism was according to:...Talmudic writings. Maimonides, that greatly revered 12th century Jewish scholar, summed up all Talmudic tradition concerning converts to Judaism as follows.
"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised
.Since Maimonides wrote in a predominately " gentile christian " era I hardly think he was writing for the benifit of christian apologest.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 19:33:19 [Permalink]
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Dr JP. Slater: "Tell me have Jews every been baptized? I'm mean is baptism a Jewish ceremony or was it ever?"
Rabbi Dr Howard Rosenstein of Brooklyn New York: "Are you shitting me? Get real."
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 19:59:19 [Permalink]
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I know, I know...that one is way too obvious. But keeping dusting up those old wacky quotes. Let's face it you can find a quote for almost anything. David Koresh thought he was Jesus so I guess we could print some of his quotes and call them right from the mouth of Jesus. Really, you can find all kinds of fool things out there if you dig deep enough.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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