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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2004 : 16:45:03
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Gorgo wrote: "Jesus, like Hercules, probably never existed at all."
Huxley wrote: "In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable."
So, Gorgo, upon what is this confidence as to probability based?
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2004 : 18:00:17 [Permalink]
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| What evidence do you have that either Hercules or Jesus of Nazareth ever existed? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
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Robert Hunter
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ivanisavich
Skeptic Friend
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 19:09:24 [Permalink]
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Not to answer for him, and without going into a lot of detail,
I would have to say the written records, as well as the archeological evidence linking those records to the times, as well as the birth of the Christian movement, and the fact that Christianity itself would never have gotten off the ground if the man simply didn't exist.
You have to remember, the first Christians walked and talked with the man. If he didn't exist there would simply have been no first Christians.
Or are you trying to suggest that the people who lived amounst the first Christians simply failed to let them know that the guy they lived with was just a figment of their imagination? Simply put, if Jesus hadn't existed, Christianity would have died off and been nipped in the bud--if it had ever gotten off the ground in the first place!
I think if we are going to argue Jesus' existence, we should rather be discussing whether he was who he claimed to be, and not whether or not he existed.
Nothing too in-depth or theological here, just some common sense! |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 19:10:10 [Permalink]
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| You really need to do much better than that, Gorgo. What is the foundation for your assertion that "Jesus ... probably never existed at all"? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 19:58:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would have to say the written records, as well as the archeological evidence linking those records to the times, as well as the birth of the Christian movement, and the fact that Christianity itself would never have gotten off the ground if the man simply didn't exist.
You have to remember, the first Christians walked and talked with the man. If he didn't exist there would simply have been no first Christians.
Or are you trying to suggest that the people who lived amounst the first Christians simply failed to let them know that the guy they lived with was just a figment of their imagination? Simply put, if Jesus hadn't existed, Christianity would have died off and been nipped in the bud--if it had ever gotten off the ground in the first place!
I think if we are going to argue Jesus' existence, we should rather be discussing whether he was who he claimed to be, and not whether or not he existed.
Nothing too in-depth or theological here, just some common sense!
So the Mormons are right too! Good call ivanisavich!
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 20:14:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
Not to answer for him, ...
Don't even try. If you wish to (foolishly) make and defend a counter-claim, please do so in your own thread. To intervene here to effectively condone a banal attempt to shift the burden of proof is not at all useful.
Parenthetically, given sentences such as: "You have to remember, the first Christians walked and talked with the man. If he didn't exist there would simply have been no first Christians.", you would do well to leave the counter-claims to more effective apologists. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 04:44:08 [Permalink]
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Sounds like you've come to the conclusion that Jesus existed. I have come to no definite conclusions. The probabilites are that Jesus is the same kind of myth that Hercules was. What is the basis for your conclusion that Jesus existed?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 05:25:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
The probabilites are that Jesus is the same kind of myth that Hercules was.
Please stop trying to shift the burden of proof.
You assert that "Jesus, like Hercules, probably never existed at all." I would really appreciate an honest effort on your part to defend that assertion. If, for whatever reason, you choose not to do so, we can simply let the topic die. What you're doing here, however, is transparent and unworthy of you. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 06:12:32 [Permalink]
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I think I've said in other posts that if you wish to understand my perspective, read books like [i]The Jesus Puzzle[i]. It would take more time than I have and more effort than I'm willing to make to explain it to you. That's why I asked what good evidence you have. If you present good evidence for your conclusion, and you are the one making a claim, not I, then I could work a little to show you why I think otherwise. But not much.
I think @tomic did very well to smash the idea that there must be a god or Jesus must have existed or people wouldn't believe in these things. People believe all kinds of stupid things. There is no good evidence that anyone ever saw such a person. Paul certainly never speaks of Jesus of Nazareth, whoever and whenever Paul was. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 06:49:31 [Permalink]
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This is strictly an opinion on my part, and worth no more than you read into it, but I think it is probable that Jesus, or someone very like him, existed. I have little doubt that there were many itinerent rabbis wandering around the holy land at the time, some with a handful of followers, some with a subversive message, some entirely insane, and some, all of the above.
That's the problem with word-of-mouth history. There's really no way to establish the facts to the satisfaction of anyone but the faithful.
Is there a kernel of fact amongst the impossible in the Jesus story? Seems likely.
Was the gentleman the bastard offspring of an adulterous union involving an all-powerful (and stark, raving mad) deity? Hardly. And first, we must confirm the existance of said deity.
I've always looked upon the story of Hercules as possibly based, with a multitude of elaborations for the best story-telling, upon some powerful hero, not necessarly of that same name. Heros were a really big deal in those simplier days, and what with no toob (a blessing), story-tellers were a valuable asset to the communities.
In any event, it all makes for a couple of good yarns.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 07:38:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
The probabilites are that Jesus is the same kind of myth that Hercules was.
Please stop trying to shift the burden of proof.
You assert that "Jesus, like Hercules, probably never existed at all." I would really appreciate an honest effort on your part to defend that assertion. If, for whatever reason, you choose not to do so, we can simply let the topic die. What you're doing here, however, is transparent and unworthy of you.
Allow me.
There are no documents outside the Bible which mention the existance of a man who led a cult of Jews that believed him to be the Messiah. In addition, the story of Jesus parallels the histories of other mythological figures. Most closely to the God Mithra, an ancient Iranian God. The fact that a Mithraic cult existed in Italy roughly between 67 BCE and 500 CE suggests that Jesus may be the cult of Mithra reworked. As Christianity, a possible Mithraic/Jewish sub-sect, ascended, Mithras worship declined until the Catholic Church was able to utterly destroy it in the 5th Century CE.
Given that we have a heavily edited document (the Bible) as the only mention of Jesus during the time frame 5 BCE- 33 CE, it is highly unlikely that a Jewish Rabbinical figure named Jesus existed during that time frame. No Jewish records record a Jesus of Nazareth. Nor do Roman. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 08:00:15 [Permalink]
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No writings of Jesus, no non-Christian contemporary accounts of Jesus, no Pauline mention of the earthly life of Jesus of Nazareth....
Thanks all. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ivanisavich
Skeptic Friend
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 08:25:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think I've said in other posts that if you wish to understand my perspective, read books like [i]The Jesus Puzzle[i]. It would take more time than I have and more effort than I'm willing to make to explain it to you. That's why I asked what good evidence you have.
In other words, "you obviously have time to write out your side's entire argument but I don't...so here...read this!"
Nice dodge!
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| Edited by - ivanisavich on 02/17/2004 08:32:59 |
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ivanisavich
Skeptic Friend
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 08:34:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
So the Mormons are right too! Good call ivanisavich!
No, but the Mormons exist. As did Jesus. Once again, the real argument is whether or not Jesus was who he claimed to be, not whether or not he existed. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 08:39:02 [Permalink]
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Again, I am not the one making the claim. Those that claim Jesus existed are making the claim and have the burden of proof. I am making no such claims. I did not start the thread. It is not my problem. I do not wish to spend a lot of time convincing people of something I care very little about. So what if he did exist? Walk on water, then come talk to me. I doubt that he did. What difference does it make? If everyone finds out that Jesus never existed, they'll make up some other stupid thing to waste time and money over.
quote:
In other words, "you obviously have time to write out your side's entire argument but I don't...so here...read this!"
Nice dodge!
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ivanisavich
Skeptic Friend
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 10:27:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
If everyone finds out that Jesus never existed, they'll make up some other stupid thing to waste time and money over.
Yes Gorgo. Jesus is simply the centre of a multi-billion dollar scheme! Good work.
quote:
Again, I am not the one making the claim.
Excuse me? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this thread was started because you Gorgo, claimed that, like Hercules, Jesus never existed.
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