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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2004 : 23:36:05
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Your comments are welcome. What do you think Jesus Christ's passion really was....I mean what Christ was passionate about...what led Him to do what He did and go through all the suffering? Could He have avoided it? If so, why did He not avoid this terrible fate? I'm not talking reasons here, but passion. Someones got to be extremely passionate about something to give up their life for it. What was it?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 11:46:38 [Permalink]
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You are completly missing the point of the word "passion". In this case it is talking about the old meaning of the word. In which it meant the suffering of Christ.
But if you want to talk about it in the modern sense of the word. His passion was for the human race. Yes he could have avoided it. But we would be doomed if he had. Because hw took on the sin of every person in history, we have hope. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 11:51:42 [Permalink]
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| Then it was suicide because it was his choice to die? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 12:20:53 [Permalink]
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Given the fairly-standard idea that Jesus was both God and man, posing the question as if Jesus had no clue that he would end up resurrected and and the right hand of the Father seems disingenuous. He knew what was going to happen, and so "gave up" nothing. His suffering was merely a transitory inconvenience, lasting less than half a day (or, at most, three-and-a-half days).
On the other hand, if, given Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46, Jesus was just a man with strong beliefs, then we are free to ignore all accounts of miracles performed by Jesus as fables. Even more, we may be able to ignore the idea that he, as just a man, was capable of taking on everyone's sins, thus invalidating one of the tenets of many non-Catholic groups. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 20:01:00 [Permalink]
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| Sin is the disease and Christ is the cure. All we ask for is donation so we can continue to sell this cure to all people. What an incredible business plan. What an incredible sales campaign. What a bottle of snake oil since the disease and the cure are both constructs of christian mythology. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2004 : 08:15:20 [Permalink]
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I figure Jesus was one of many 'prophets' that appeared at this time such as John the baptist. By the way, there are apparently independent records that verify the existence of John the baptist, unlike Jesus. Anyway, when Jesus was killed his followers must have said 'great now what do we do?'. Then some genius came up with the idea that Jesus "died for our sins, and if you beleive that you will have everlasting life in heaven". Well heaven sure beats the hell out of going to Sheol, which is like Hades. This was a fantastic marketing plan that has not been duplicated until someone came up with selling water in a bottle for more than a soda cost.
I think that the reason that the Christian religion exists is because of the genius of Paul, John and others, not Jesus himself.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2004 : 17:22:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Then it was suicide because it was his choice to die?
Yes.....in the same way it is for a parent to jump in front of a bullet, to save there child.
quote:
Given the fairly-standard idea that Jesus was both God and man, posing the question as if Jesus had no clue that he would end up resurrected and and the right hand of the Father seems disingenuous. He knew what was going to happen, and so "gave up" nothing. His suffering was merely a transitory inconvenience, lasting less than half a day (or, at most, three-and-a-half days).
I thought this was a good time to clear up a common misconception. JESUS WAS NOT OMNIPITENT! The very fact that it says in a few places in the bible "Jesus learned" proves the fact. I believe he did not figure out that he was the son of God until later in his life.
My main complaint with the movie is that it only shows the suffering of Christ. When that is in reality only a tiny sliver of what Christ was giving up. The fact that he was on Earth in the first place. That is so against his nature. It is the much larger sacrifice then the "passion" of christ. Even though his suffering was also a large part of it.
(edited for content)
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
| Edited by - byhisgrace88 on 03/11/2004 17:28:39 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2004 : 17:57:41 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
I thought this was a good time to clear up a common misconception. JESUS WAS NOT OMNIPITENT! The very fact that it says in a few places in the bible "Jesus learned" proves the fact. I believe he did not figure out that he was the son of God until later in his life.
Well, in which verses of which Bible does it say "Jesus learned"? The gospels in the KJV use the word "learned" only twice, both in John:quote:
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. - John 6:45
That's Jesus talking. And:quote:
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? - John 7:15
Which is obviously talk about Jesus.
And at the age of 12, Jesus already knew what was going on:quote:
And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? - Luke 2:49
And, if we take the Bible at its word, Jesus foretold a lot of stuff. Peter's three denials of Jesus (along with the cock crowing), for example. Jesus may not have been omnipotent, but he sure appears to be omniscient, and that's all that matters regarding his sacrifice. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 22:49:04 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Dave W.
He knew what was going to happen, and so "gave up" nothing. His suffering was merely a transitory inconvenience, lasting less than half a day (or, at most, three-and-a-half days).
Because one knows what will happen does it make the suffering of it any less suffering? Methinks you presume too much. If you knew you were to inherit a billion dollars after completing an arduous hike to the top of a mountain, Dave, would the journey to the top be easy? What if you even knew the future that you'd have a heart attack at the top after winning the prize? Would you do it? Would it be worth it?
If Jesus knew everything that was going to happen to him, why was it that his sweat was like great drops of blood, during the fervency of his prayer at Gethsemene? Maybe the greatest difficulty was beyond what we understand. As the question poses, what was Christ's true passion? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 22:50:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Then it was suicide because it was his choice to die?
Not exactly suicide...he was arrested, tried, accused falsely, condemned and hung on a cross...yes, he could have escaped it, but then that would have proved he was just a mere man. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 22:57:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
Sin is the disease and Christ is the cure. All we ask for is donation so we can continue to sell this cure to all people. What an incredible business plan. What an incredible sales campaign. What a bottle of snake oil since the disease and the cure are both constructs of christian mythology.
So, you say sin is a construct of Christian mythology? Then murder, thievry, rape, adultery, lying, terrorizing, robbing, and every form of lawlessness is just a figment of Christian imagination, along with greed, lust for sex, lust for power and gain, hatred, hypocrisy, and just plain meaness and unbelief toward God is all, likewise just a myth? Nice try, but you lose the game of life which is based on reality. The very "snake oil" example you give is one of the deceitful ways of men, or sin. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 23:05:48 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by furshur
This was a fantastic marketing plan that has not been duplicated until someone came up with selling water in a bottle for more than a soda cost.
I think that the reason that the Christian religion exists is because of the genius of Paul, John and others, not Jesus himself.
Unlike the Coca Cola company ceo's, Paul had his head cut off by Caesar...that's real marketing alright. John was boiled in oil for his trouble and, when they could'nt kill him, exiled to Patmos. Peter, too, was crucified. Most all of the apostles were killed violently for the faith in Jesus. That's some marketing, alright, only the reward surely wasn't this world's good. Must have been something to it for so many to follow them.
By the way, the current American church doen't even resemble the early church, they didn't lust for money and popularity. Check this link out for an article on the Condition of the American Church: http://www.dands-construction.com/psweb/Amerchurc1.html I think its this Churchianity that you're confusing with the old time Christianity. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 23:08:17 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by creation88
My main complaint with the movie is that it only shows the suffering of Christ. When that is in reality only a tiny sliver of what Christ was giving up. The fact that he was on Earth in the first place. That is so against his nature. It is the much larger sacrifice then the "passion" of christ. Even though his suffering was also a large part of it.
Creation, I think it was exactly part of God's nature to come to the earth he created, in love for his creation.
By the way, it seems that Jesus knew what he was about at age 12. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 03/12/2004 23:09:29 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2004 : 00:04:54 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
Because one knows what will happen does it make the suffering of it any less suffering? Methinks you presume too much. If you knew you were to inherit a billion dollars after completing an arduous hike to the top of a mountain, Dave, would the journey to the top be easy?
No, but I would be much more passionate about it than if I were promised nothing but a good view.quote:
What if you even knew the future that you'd have a heart attack at the top after winning the prize? Would you do it? Would it be worth it?
What would my motivation be, in such a case? I win a billion bucks, but can't use it? The courts would have a field-day with my will, as if I let it be known that I knew the climb would kill me, they would surely interpret it as suicide. Nobody would consider me to be of "sound mind."quote:
If Jesus knew everything that was going to happen to him, why was it that his sweat was like great drops of blood, during the fervency of his prayer at Gethsemene?
Well, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me..." He didn't want to go through all the crap, but he knew he had to. If I knew I was about to be betrayed, flogged, and killed, I would want the time to pass faster, also.quote:
Maybe the greatest difficulty was beyond what we understand. As the question poses, what was Christ's true passion?
It's all there in the Bible, and it certainly wasn't mahjong.
To moakley, you wrote:quote:
So, you say sin is a construct of Christian mythology? Then murder, thievry, rape, adultery, lying, terrorizing, robbing, and every form of lawlessness is just a figment of Christian imagination, along with greed, lust for sex, lust for power and gain, hatred, hypocrisy, and just plain meaness and unbelief toward God is all, likewise just a myth? Nice try, but you lose the game of life which is based on reality. The very "snake oil" example you give is one of the deceitful ways of men, or sin.
No, a "sin" is very specific: it's an offense against God. Murder, theivery, rape, etc. are all nasty to atheists because they are offenses against other people. "Sin" is the myth. If you don't think so, then demonstrate God's existence, to give sin a factual basis for the rest of us.
You wrote to furshur:quote:
Unlike the Coca Cola company ceo's, Paul had his head cut off by Caesar...that's real marketing alright. John was boiled in oil for his trouble and, when they could'nt kill him, exiled to Patmos. Peter, too, was crucified. Most all of the apostles were killed violently for the faith in Jesus.
I'd like to see support for these assertions. Lots of people claim that the apostles were martyred for their beliefs, but I have yet to see any evidence of this. The worst I've been able to find is that Paul was imprisoned. 12 apostles, and you've claimed that 16% of them (Peter and Paul) were "killed violently." What about the other eight (I bet we can agree that neither Judas nor John was martyred, in sense #1)? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2004 : 01:11:19 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
By the way, the current American church doen't even resemble the early church, they didn't lust for money and popularity. Check this link out for an article on the Condition of the American Church: http://www.dands-construction.com/psweb/Amerchurc1.html I think its this Churchianity that you're confusing with the old time Christianity.
The idea that there is an "American Church" is ludicrous on its face. There are, literally, hundreds of different churches in America, all teaching different things. To lump them all together (except, of course, for those which believe that which Pastor Steve believes) is to present the idea that the Catholics and Mormons demonstrate a union which certainly does not exist.
Besides which, Pastor Steve says,quote:
I agree there is no perfect church because it's made up of imperfect humans, but there is to be a healthy, godly church as scripture demands. If we can't find one, then we should pray God raise one up.
But he also says,quote:
The Roman Catholic Church rejected the true Gospel during the Reformation and is apostate because they try to earn salvation through good works and not as a gift of grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
If one truly accepts the gift of Grace, what need has one of a church? After all, whenever two or more of the faithful meet, Jesus is amongst them. In other words, the "true church" already exists: there is no need to "find" one or to ask God to "raise one up." Pastor Steve appears to not know his Scripture any better than those he rails against.
Of course, Pastor Steve may consider this to be "persecution," and thus take heart that his idea of "church" is "true," but what I've said applies to all of "Churchianity," as well. I very much doubt he'd like to be lumped in with that bunch of "hypocrites."
Also, to borrow a quote from one of Pastor Steve's other articles: "Also, we must ask this question -- who made [Pastor Steve] the judge over other [churches] to decide which [church] needs to fall or who made [Pastor Steve] the police[man] of the [so-called 'American Church']?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2004 : 21:18:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
...he was arrested, tried, accused falsely, condemned and hung on a cross...yes, he could have escaped it, but then that would have proved he was just a mere man.
The Passion narrative is most easily understood as a latter day fabrication authored by an intensely and increasingly anti-Jewish Christian sect using the 22 Psalm as prooftext.
It is absurd to suggest that the Sanhedrin would have violated it's own rules.
It is absurd to suggest that Jews would have acted in such a vile manner during a formal trial.
It is absurd to suggest that an arrogant butcher like Pilate would act in such a weak and malleable manner.
It is absurd to suggest the existence of a Passover Privilege, wholly unknown to anyone other than Christian apologists.
Only those committed to accepting the Passion narrative find it credible.
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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