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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2004 : 17:41:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
quote:
Relatives and friends who were concerned that their son/daughter/friend left their main-stream religion to join a weird sect was a personal matter to them. So their story would be a matter of private records.
And yet the same people that you claim were concerned of their family members also soon joined this "cult" as history shows, to an extent where if anyone wasn't a Christian, it was practically a crime.
Yes, but it was a process over decades, even centuries. In the beginning the cult was small. Later when it had grown enough people likes started thinking "If you can't beat them, join them".
Church history is full of accounts of opportunists grabbing power for their own gain.
Just like Islaam.
Just like Scientology: It started out small, but it is unfortunatly gaining ground. With public figures like John Travolta as members, uncritically thinking people are going believe there is something to it. The fact that Ron Hubbard is dead hasn't stopped them, but it is gaining momentum. In a few decades I bet Hubbard will be raised to demi- goodhood, or at least be regarded as a prophet since he founded the "church".
quote:
Once again, it's a little odd that if Jesus was such a blatantly fictional character, he had any followers in the first place.
There probably was a cult-leader. History is full of them, but in modern days, they don't get away with it as easily as they used to. These days it more often ends in a shootout with some government agency.
quote:
What I was simply recognizing is the fact that it's easy for people who live 2000 years after someone to question his/her existence. And it's also funny that no one living during Jesus lifespan (that we know of) did so. My statement had nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is true, as it could have been made for any other religion such as Buddhism or Scientology as you pointed out. It was simply a re-affimation of my problem with the idea that a religion with an imaginary founder has lasted so long--which is something that is highly improbable.
His deciples may have been in on it, creating the myth around him. That explanation do not demand Jesus himself to be fictional, just the stories about what he did.
I agree that it is improbable that a fictional character ends up as a deity, but do we know how many attempts that has been made before and after Jesus supposedly lived? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2004 : 18:43:06 [Permalink]
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ivanisavich wrote:quote:
We have several eye-witness accounts written by people who knew him personally. You cannot dismiss their writings because they were not employed as historians.
Actually, I've been thinking about this some more, and am partial to an idea I haven't heard expressed before. Don't know how well it'll "fly," or if it's flown before, but here it is...
Some guy, perhaps named Jesus, perhaps Immanuel (perhaps Fred for all I know), walked around the countryside with his buddies Peter, Paul, John, etc., talking some new stuff about God being love. From these small beginnings, the stories were passed around, and soon took on a life of their own, with miracles getting tossed into the mix and all sorts of other characters getting added in. The people passing the stories around were Jewish, and soon the stories included parts about this guy being the long-awaited saviour who'd been prophecied.
Fred vanished, either of his own accord or not, but the stories, within just a few years, all claimed he would come back within the listener's lifetimes. Thirty years or so later, the people who'd kept the stories alive started getting worried (as Fred's return didn't seem so imminent anymore), and begged Fred's closest pals to commit the stories to a "permanent record" of sorts. One, at least, did so quickly, but rather than disappoint the eager people with the way things really happened, he just wrote down the stories that the people already knew (they were better than the boring truth, anyway). Other, later authors did the same, independently, but for the exact same reasons.
I've got no clue as to how likely such a scenario was, but it could explain both the similarities among the gospels and the disparities among them. We also shouldn't forget how malleable memory is, and it's possible that the authors "remembered" things which simply didn't happen, because they'd been exposed to 30-plus years of the mythical stories, as well.quote:
The Jewish claims I was referring to were written by Talmudic scholars who lived around 400AD. Normally, we would ignore such claims because they were written 400 years after the fact, but we have to remember that those Jews would have had no reason to acknowledge Jesus' existence if in deed he did not exist.
And those scholars were more likely to have a better record of what really happened because...? After 400 years, it seems to me that everyone had exactly the same evidence: a bunch of books and letters, and no physical evidence whatsoever. Almost everyone else in Christendom believed that Jesus has lived, and lacking any definitive evidence of his non-existence, the scholars perhaps came to the conclusion that they'd be more believable if they simply denounced Jesus as a false messiah. Maybe. I'm winging this one.quote:
If his inexistence was the case, the Jewish leaders (making up a large opposition to Christianity) would have maintained their stance that Jesus never existed. Yet they didn't.
No, after 400 years, Christianity was already the state-sponsored religion in much (or most) of the area. Jews didn't make up a "large opposition" to the state at that time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 06:08:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jarrid
And another thing...this is really just to everyone...I find it silly that you are debating Jesus' existence. That's like trying to prove or disprove God...IT'S IMPOSSIBLE! ...
It's silly to debate whether Jesus every existed, but it's not silly for someone to witness to the love of Jesus The Myth ? It's not silly for several evangelicals to be out there making a very good living by telling Jesus related stories and getting the faithful to give them money.
My dad's last few days of life were very bad. He was so frightened that he had been a bad christian and was destine to spend enternity in Hell. That makes me angry. If it wasn't for the non-sense of a god belief and those theives who perpetuate the lies in the name of money. Then perhaps people like my dad would not suffer the anguish that he did in his last few days. He would have seen that death in just the conclusion to something very special, every minute of this life. It is not just a dress rehearsal, and there is no evidence that it is. There is only faith and the money grubbing vermin who insist on keeping you in servitude, in fear for your immortal soul.
One of the most surprising answers that I have ever heard for the question, "How do you know that God exists ?" came from the mouth of Billy Graham. Graham's response is, "Because I just finished talking with him." I'm sure the faithful found this to be a inspired and compelling answer (Of course the faithful are not known for thinking critically on matters of faith). But I can remember my sister challenging me when I was younger, "How do you know your invisible friend exists?". "Because I just finished talking with him." I had this friend for many of the same reasons that people have an "Invisible friend named Jesus". It was consoling.
Additionally, I am not sure how the gospels can be considered eye witness accounts when they were written anywhere from 20 to 80 years after the presumed death of Jesus The Myth.
Jesus and God exist because of the money ... |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 07:04:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
quote:
Relatives and friends who were concerned that their son/daughter/friend left their main-stream religion to join a weird sect was a personal matter to them. So their story would be a matter of private records.
And yet the same people that you claim were concerned of their family members also soon joined this "cult" as history shows, to an extent where if anyone wasn't a Christian, it was practically a crime.
Yes, but it was a process over decades, even centuries. In the beginning the cult was small. Later when it had grown enough people likes started thinking "If you can't beat them, join them".
Church history is full of accounts of opportunists grabbing power for their own gain.
Just like Islaam.
Just like Scientology: It started out small, but it is unfortunatly gaining ground. With public figures like John Travolta as members, uncritically thinking people are going believe there is something to it. The fact that Ron Hubbard is dead hasn't stopped them, but it is gaining momentum. In a few decades I bet Hubbard will be raised to demi- goodhood, or at least be regarded as a prophet since he founded the "church".
The same arguements can be made for every organized religion since the ancient times. Even my own religion regards its founders as devinely inspired and visionaries. The difference is that we actually have documented proof that the figures existed. They are conspiculously devoid of miracles, though. Tends to come from a religion which stresses questioning of the status quo and freethinking. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 23:53:09 [Permalink]
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Val,
What is a strawman? Lol also, I'm not arguing whether God exists or does not exist, I'm saying that I find it silly to argue it;)
Gorgo,
Ok...God=love. Work for you? haha jk;) God could be defined as an omnipotent, omnipresent being shown in 3 entities, being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who created the universe in seven days....that's about as basic as I could think of;)
Posted by Gorgo:
"People make up stories. What is different about the story that you "believe" is real that makes you think it's real? Because lots of people believe the story? Not good enough. Because you don't want to believe something else? Not good enough."
Well, the majority of "made-up" stories don't last 2000 years, for one. I don't base what I believe off of the fact of whether or not other people believe it, either, so that's not a reason. I don't have a problem believing something else, either, considering I come here all the time and read what you all have to say even though it contradicts what I believe. I find you all to be VERY intelligent beings(well, except for dave....jk!) so it's not that I choose not to believe what you believe or that I'm closed minded. I believe the "made up stories", as you referred to them, because to me, they are as true in my heart as the fact that on a clear, sunny day the sky is blue. I believe them I guess partly because that is what has been taught to me, just as one may believe that beating his wife is right because that is what was taught to him. Is that wrong? Maybe. I also believe the "made up stories" because they hold characteristical(I just made that word up) truths in them, showing in them a way that IS a better way to live, in my opinion. If they teach love, and the world teaches hate, then what is the better way? Is it better to live in hate, or to live in love? Is it better to live doing bad things to those around you, or is it better to live doing good things for those around you? I believe those "made up stories" because they offer meaning to my life. I have a purpose: to try and help out my fellow man, rather than stepping on him when he's down. Without a purpose, life is meaningless. Maybe your purpose isn't the same as mine, but it doesn't mean my purpose is wrong, and just because our purposes differ doesn't mean your purpose is wrong, either. Now I'm certainly not suggesting that we just do whatever we want and call it our "purpose", because I believe your purpose should be to the good of others as well as yourself, but anyway I'm rambling. I believe these made up stories because they haven't been proven to be "made up" to me yet, and until they do, every time someone fails at disproving them, it just adds to their credibility in my eyes.
moakley,
I'm sorry to hear about your dad. I understand your anger or frustration. I would probably be angry or frustrated or upset as well. However, I do disagree with this:
Quote:
"Jesus and God exist because of the money ..."
I've never made money off of God. You seem to assume that the only reason a pastor is a pastor is to get rich. I admit, there was an awful spell of televangelists in the 80's I believe? That their entire purpose was to make money, but most pastors don't even own the home they are living in. It belongs to the church. Most pastors have to have another job in order to live. Most pastors' wives have to work as well, especially if they have children. A pastors salary is not a get-rich-quick scheme, it's a get poor and stay poor or get a better job kind of situation lol. The money that is given to the church...doesn't just go to the pastor. The church does have debts, you know? Things like light bills and mortgages and water bills and paying that guy that mows the lawn and stocking the food pantry so that the poor people of the community can have something to eat, etc etc...my point is your statement is completely inaccurate, if I am understanding it correctly. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it? I'm a dumb kid lol it's easy to do;) Anyway, from how I understand it, you are saying that people carry on Christianity to make money. For some people, this could be the case, but for most it is not.
Jarrid |
I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
| Edited by - Jarrid on 03/02/2004 23:57:49 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 04:25:19 [Permalink]
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Define "love" Jarrid. Tell me how using the word "god" is different than using the word "love." If God is cheese, then why use the word "God?" What can you do with the idea of god that I can't do without it?
Tell me why you think the world teaches "hate" and why you think that's different than what people who believe in god teach.
I have to agree about the money. People don't con one another just for money. There are a lot of reasons. Power can be a reason and power doesn't necessarily equal money. Sometimes people con one another just because they can. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 06:12:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jarrid
"Jesus and God exist because of the money ..."
I've never made money off of God. You seem to assume that the only reason a pastor is a pastor is to get rich.
Jarrid
Most pastors would not be pastors if it was not for Jesus stories and god stories, and the fear of punishment or hope for reward by the faithful who uncritically accept these stories. Drop money into a collection plate (they can ill afford to at times) in order to buy eternal salvation. Maybe the pastors believe the stories as well, but if a story can not be validated through any means other than faith, then it is deceitful to present these stories as truth.
In the mid nineties when I was wavering with faith and still attending service. I decided to no longer drop money into the collection plate. It took someone 4 weeks to ask about this. I told them that my expenses were great and I no longer could afford to donate. That's when they reminded me about tithing, by giving 10% of my income it would come back to me 10 fold. I asked, "If I gave 20% would my income double?"
I could no longer isolate the stories and attribute of Jesus and God from each other. When I started to consider the complete picture, I realized that these stories and attributes were like a house of cards. That faith is a bad foundation on which to consider the merits of any assertion. Which led me to "Believing is easy, thinking is not. And thinking is more satisfying."
Good Luck, Jarrid |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 06:39:21 [Permalink]
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Well said.
quote:
Which led me to "Believing is easy, thinking is not. And thinking is more satisfying."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 07:39:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jarrid
Val,
What is a strawman? Lol also, I'm not arguing whether God exists or does not exist, I'm saying that I find it silly to argue it;)
Strawman is a logical fallacy whereby the respondent refutes a constructed arguement considerably weaker than the strongest arguement offered. In this case, your strawman was the refutation of an absolute on the existance of Jesus. The strongest arguement presented was the probablity of the existance of Jesus.
quote:
Gorgo,
Ok...God=love. Work for you? haha jk;) God could be defined as an omnipotent, omnipresent being shown in 3 entities, being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who created the universe in seven days....that's about as basic as I could think of;)
Posted by Gorgo:
"People make up stories. What is different about the story that you "believe" is real that makes you think it's real? Because lots of people believe the story? Not good enough. Because you don't want to believe something else? Not good enough."
Well, the majority of "made-up" stories don't last 2000 years, for one. I don't base what I believe off of the fact of whether or not other people believe it, either, so that's not a reason. I don't have a problem believing something else, either, considering I come here all the time and read what you all have to say even though it contradicts what I believe. I find you all to be VERY intelligent beings(well, except for dave....jk!) so it's not that I choose not to believe what you believe or that I'm closed minded. I believe the "made up stories", as you referred to them, because to me, they are as true in my heart as the fact that on a clear, sunny day the sky is blue. I believe them I guess partly because that is what has been taught to me, just as one may believe that beating his wife is right because that is what was taught to him. Is that wrong? Maybe. I also believe the "made up stories" because they hold characteristical(I just made that word up) truths in them, showing in them a way that IS a better way to live, in my opinion. If they teach love, and the world teaches hate, then what is the better way? Is it better to live in hate, or to live in love? Is it better to live doing bad things to those around you, or is it better to live doing good things for those around you? I believe those "made up stories" because they offer meaning to my life. I have a purpose: to try and help out my fellow man, rather than stepping on him when he's down. Without a purpose, life is meaningless. Maybe your purpose isn't the same as mine, but it doesn't mean my purpose is wrong, and just because our purposes differ doesn't mean your purpose is wrong, either. Now I'm certainly not suggesting that we just do whatever we want and call it our "purpose", because I believe your purpose should be to the good of others as well as yourself, but anyway I'm rambling. I believe these made up stories because they haven't been proven to be "made up" to me yet, and until they do, every time someone fails at disproving them, it just adds to their credibility in my eyes.
The myth of Hercules lasted for more than 2000 years with adherents to it. So did the ancient religion of Egypt. Amun worship was active for nearly 3000 years. Again, we are talking about the probabilty that a person existed. Given the lack of reference to said person during the alledged time frame they were supposed to exist outside one religious document, it is highly unlikely that said person existed.
quote:
moakley,
I'm sorry to hear about your dad. I understand your anger or frustration. I would probably be angry or frustrated or upset as well. However, I do disagree with this:
Quote:
"Jesus and God exist because of the money ..."
I've never made money off of God. You seem to assume that the only reason a pastor is a pastor is to get rich. I admit, there was an awful spell of televangelists in the 80's I believe? That their entire purpose was to make money, but most pastors don't even own the home they are living in. It belongs to the church. Most pastors have to have another job in order to live. Most pastors' wives have to work as well, especially if they have children. A pastors salary is not a get-rich-quick scheme, it's a get poor and stay poor or get a better job kind of situation lol. The money that is given to the church...doesn't just go to the pastor. The church does have debts, you know? Things like light bills and mortgages and water bills and paying that guy that mows the lawn and stocking the food pantry so that the poor people of the community can have something to eat, etc etc...my point is your statement is completely inaccurate, if I am understanding it correctly. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it? I'm a dumb kid lol it's easy to do;) Anyway, from how I understand it, you are saying that people carry on Christianity to make money. For some people, this could be the case, but for most it is not.
Jarrid
The trend of pastors in religion for the money still exists. Bob Larson Ministries springs to mind. The church, a pseudo-corporation, exists to make money to build and maintain structures, pay salaries to high church officials and preachers, and satisfy debts. Some are way more successful than others. While individual pastors may not be in the clergy for personal gain, you still have the idea of tithing. This is solely a way for the church to gain money. This is a failing of organized religious administration, not of the religion itself. Jesus and God persist as concepts forwarded by the religion and are sometimes misused by the church to gain wealth. Moakley equates the theological constructs of a diety with the operation of the church administration. This is not a valid equation. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 07:44:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by Jarrid
"Jesus and God exist because of the money ..."
I've never made money off of God. You seem to assume that the only reason a pastor is a pastor is to get rich.
Jarrid
Most pastors would not be pastors if it was not for Jesus stories and god stories, and the fear of punishment or hope for reward by the faithful who uncritically accept these stories. Drop money into a collection plate (they can ill afford to at times) in order to buy eternal salvation. Maybe the pastors believe the stories as well, but if a story can not be validated through any means other than faith, then it is deceitful to present these stories as truth.
In the mid nineties when I was wavering with faith and still attending service. I decided to no longer drop money into the collection plate. It took someone 4 weeks to ask about this. I told them that my expenses were great and I no longer could afford to donate. That's when they reminded me about tithing, by giving 10% of my income it would come back to me 10 fold. I asked, "If I gave 20% would my income double?"
I could no longer isolate the stories and attribute of Jesus and God from each other. When I started to consider the complete picture, I realized that these stories and attributes were like a house of cards. That faith is a bad foundation on which to consider the merits of any assertion. Which led me to "Believing is easy, thinking is not. And thinking is more satisfying."
Good Luck, Jarrid
Moakley,
You are equating the doctorine of the church administration with the reason most pastors devote their life to the church. I have been to several different Christian churches during my search for religion. The ones stressing tithing have been in the extreme minority. Mostly, the more radical Evangelical Fundamentalist a denomination is, the more they stress tithing to fund their "war on Satan". (See Bob Larson Ministries for example.) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Huluhae
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 15:03:24 [Permalink]
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| You should all the read the book You Are Being Lied To if you haven't already. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 15:17:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Huluhae
You should all the read the book You Are Being Lied To if you haven't already.
I took a look at the synopsis on Amazon. Contributers include Noam Chomsky. I am skeptical of it's value. There could very well be some good information and valid refutaions within. There is also a good probability that some of it is total crap, too. It all depends if they quote sources. If they don't, it isn't worth the paper it's written on. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 15:54:23 [Permalink]
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Some of it is worth reading. You can read Chomsky's article here:
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9710-mainstream-media.html
I'd say get it from the library. Don't buy it.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 03/03/2004 15:57:51 |
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 18:22:41 [Permalink]
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Val,
I do understand that there are some people who use religion to gain profits for themselves, but judging every pastor by that or saying that Christianity is a money scheme because of a few people would be like me saying that all cars are pink because I've seen a few cars that are pink. I've not seen all the cars in the world, and the majority of the cars may not be of pink. The pastors that I've known, which have been many, have not been in this type of business for financial gain. Also, again to clarify, discluding maybe the Catholic church in the 1500's or whatever, the church isn't a large corporation. There isn't a whole lot of profit. The church I attend now is actually in debt every month by several hundred dollars(and this isn't in debt to the pastor, this is in debt to bill collectors). My church I came from before I moved here to South Dakota was 40 thousand dollars in debt. Tithes aren't a way for the pastor to get rich. Tithes are a way for the church to stay on it's feet financially. Who is supposed to pay those bills? According to Christianity, God gives to His people, and he expects them to return a small portion of it in order to keep the church going. And again I agree some people have used Christianity to their own financial profit, and if it were up to me they would be imprisoned for stealing from people, because some of the people they take money from don't have the money to spare, but are desperate for an answer. None of the churches I have attended have said "You have to give or you're going to hell" or anything like that. Tithes aren't monitored...no one knows who pays their tithes and who doesn't, discluding the treasurer, and the only way he knows is if you write a check. There have never been tabs kept on tithe givers in any church I've ever been in, and if there were, I would stand up and tell the pastor how wrong he was. Someone said that they stopped giving their tithe and then 4 weeks later someone asked them why they stopped giving their tithe...man I wish I'd been there, because that's nobody's business but your own...but hey that's just my opinion I guess;)
Jarrid |
I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 18:25:51 [Permalink]
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| Oh and also Val, I guarded myself on that one;) if you'll notice, I said "the majority of 'made up stories' don't last 2000 years." And then another note...those stories, from what I understand of them, aren't taught as fact anymore. They are remembered still, but aren't considered to be true. |
I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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