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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2004 : 17:09:13
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With this court case in mind, I'd like to get some input from the faithful here on the SFN to these questions:
1) If Jesus, in his youth (prior to his performance of miracles), were running around today, would he get institutionalized for claiming to be the Son of God? At the very least, would it not be the case that many priests, ministers, pastors, etc. would tell him to seek the help of a mental health professional? How can we tell the difference between a delusional person and the real Son of God?
2) It's been argued here that without belief in God, people won't know right from wrong. From the above case, it seems clear that belief in God is no guarantor of morality. How is it possible to tell willful sinning (using "free will" to choose to spit on God's rules) from insanity?
3) And how can we mere mortals tell the difference between either insanity or willful sin, and a case where God really does speak to someone, and tell them to do something horrendous?
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Evidently, I rock!
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 21:10:54 [Permalink]
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This is a very disturbing case. It makes me quite sad to think that anyone could kill children based upon what they read in a book. Can reading the bible cause ones critical thinking to deminish to the point where killing your children seems like the correct thing to do ? The bible does contain a lot of disturbing and violent verses.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.shtml
And I've never understood Psalm 137:9 |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 07:09:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
With this court case in mind, I'd like to get some input from the faithful here on the SFN to these questions:
1) If Jesus, in his youth (prior to his performance of miracles), were running around today, would he get institutionalized for claiming to be the Son of God? At the very least, would it not be the case that many priests, ministers, pastors, etc. would tell him to seek the help of a mental health professional? How can we tell the difference between a delusional person and the real Son of God?
2) It's been argued here that without belief in God, people won't know right from wrong. From the above case, it seems clear that belief in God is no guarantor of morality. How is it possible to tell willful sinning (using "free will" to choose to spit on God's rules) from insanity?
3) And how can we mere mortals tell the difference between either insanity or willful sin, and a case where God really does speak to someone, and tell them to do something horrendous?
Last I heard of this case, the mother was aquitted. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 07:34:36 [Permalink]
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Yeah, probably just a few hours after I posted the OP. Here's one story on it. From that story:Defense attorney Tonda Curry: "Our client is not going to be punished by the criminal justice system. Now, and for the rest of her life, the punishment and torment that's going on inside her own head is more significant than anything the criminal justice system could have done to her short of death." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 09:07:39 [Permalink]
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It is truly a tragic thing.
I think she was 'off the deep end' for a long time, then was unable to maintain any longer, and flipped. The stress of appearig 'normal' must have been incredable.
I, for one, can't put it down to an overdose of religion, although it was undoubtably an influecing factor in her final actions, due mainly to her life-long conditioning. I think that even if she were an atheist, some voice of some sort -- UFO aliens, deceased relatives or even famous, historical figures, or whatever -- would have pushed her into into murdering her offspring.
So sad.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
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spindizy
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 10:10:25 [Permalink]
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Im sorry, but this woman was not insane, she may have been crazy, but she was not insane. She tried to lock her husband in their room, she had placed a rock undeneath the baby's crib BEFOREHAND obvisouly knowing what she intended to do, and she showed no emotion on the 911 call, even if God spoke to her, and even if God told her to kill her kids, and even if God told her not to kill the baby -- Which she tried to do -- she should have been upset at the fact that she had done something against God's so-called orders, but no. This woman also tried to compair herself to Andrea Yates, and said that she thought that she and her were God's chosen ones, Im sorry, but this fact that she even compaired herself to Ms. Yates is a sign that she KNEW what she was doing, obvisouly she heard about Ms Yates killing her children, which she knew IS WRONG (in God's eyes, and in the eyes of the law). She is using the bible as a cop-out, a scape goat, and a patsy! I CAN'T BELIEVE SHE WAS FOUND NOT GUILTY!!!! This ENRAGED me, at least Ms Yates children could have open casket funerals, she only drown them. Her poor children were bashed in the head with rocks until dead.
Let me recount the details: After her husband fell asleep, she left the bestroom -- trying to lock him inside it. She then went to the baby's room, retrieved the rock from underneath the crib, put the baby on the floor, hit him in the head, at which point he began to cry, her husband hearing this, came into the room and all he could see was her back, she told him "Its ok, go back to bed" and he did, and she hit the baby again, at which point he stopped crying and started making a gurgling noise (due to the blood filling up in his lungs) then she put him in the crib, with a pillow over his head, and left him for dead. The she woke up her 6 year old son, lead him outside to a rock garder, told him to lie down on the ground and put his head on a rock (facing away from her) she lifted a 16 pound rock above his head, and smashed it into his skull, then drug his lifeless body out to the fron yard and placed the rock on his chest. She returned to the house, woke up her 8 year old son, lead him into the same rock garden where his brother had just died, and told him to lay down in the same fasion. She lifted another 16 pound rock above his head and smashed it into his skull, except he started to struggle, she then placed her knees on his arms, and hit him in the head a few more times, then pressed down on his chest to restrict his breathing until it stopped rising.
Ms. Yates merely drown her children, placed them in a bathtub and pushed them under the water.. thats a much less personal killing than bashing someones head in.
>Dave W. -- Posted - 04/03/2004 : 17:09:13
>3) And how can we mere mortals tell the difference between either
>insanity or willful sin, and a case where God really does speak to
>someone, and tell them to do something horrendous?
Why on God's green earth would the Almighty even tell a mother to MURDER HER OFFSPRING IN COLD BLOOD? I'm sorry sir, but I believe that this is pretty easy to distinguish between Divine Motivation and willful sin, and the fact that you even suggest the fact that God COULD have told her to do this leads me to believe that you need to have your head examined as well.
Im not a spiritual person. per se, I don't believe in God in a traditional sense, but I believe in a higher power of some kind, I don't read the bible for the fact that the bible was dictated to the writer and it was origionally written Aramaic or Hebrew -- Not English. So it has obvisouly been translated at least once -- probably lots more times, and every time its written by someone other than the origional author -- either translated or copied, it is "spun" to the views and beliefs of the writer, not the author. I.E. the King
James version -- Written to King James' specifications so therefore the bible is not God's word, its King James' word!
But back to the subject, this is a case of PRE-MEDITATED M-U-R-D-E-R, plain and simple, I believe that someone purchased the jury in this case, the american justice system is corrupt, the government is corrupt, the police are corrupt, and most of organized religion is corrupt as well -- and ALL of the above are motivated by one thing -- MONEY. If this wasn't the case, we wouldn't have jury's bribed, we wouldn't have lobbyists in congress, we wouldn't need Internal Affairs to watch the police to make sure they're not living beyond their means, and we definatly would NOT have televangelists telling us that we'll get from God what we give to them, the more we give the more we get -- It don't work that way.
>Dave W. -- Posted - 04/03/2004 : 17:09:13
>1) If Jesus, in his youth (prior to his performance of miracles),
>were running around today, would he get institutionalized for >claiming to be the Son of God? At the very least, would it not be
>the case that many priests, ministers, pastors, etc. would tell him >to seek the help of a mental health professional? How can we tell the >difference between a delusional person and the real Son of God?
Dave.. come on man, thats easy, how would we tell? Im fairly certain Jesus wouldn't be going around bashing children's heads with rocks. And I doubt he would be institutionalized JUST for saying he was the son of god -- last time I checked, we had the right to free speech, heck he could say he was God himself and not get thrown in the nuthouse. And as far as telling him apart from a delusional person, it's a matter of watching their actions. Jesus would be roaming the world, helping the needy wherever he could, not watching TV and drinking pepsi while wearing Nike shoes (Jesus would wear Birkenstock's! :) ) And once the miracles started rolling, it would be pretty clear. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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spindizy
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 10:25:30 [Permalink]
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Believe it or not, neither.
Im a 22 year old computer technician / linux server administrator. But ive taken some psychology classes and I pay attention to law changes and I like shows like law and order, and CSI. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 09:54:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Last I heard of this case, the mother was aquitted.
I wonder if the father had killed the children, if he would have gotten off? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 12:07:43 [Permalink]
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spindizy wrote:quote:
Why on God's green earth would the Almighty even tell a mother to MURDER HER OFFSPRING IN COLD BLOOD?
Well, one of the assumptions is that God is ineffable. Clearly, this horrific act could, conceivably, fit into "God's perfect plan" somehow (a guess might be that perhaps the kids would have grown up to be pure evil). And you, being a mere mortal and not privvy to the mind of God, are in no position to question His allegedly-infinite wisdom.
Besides which,Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
- Bob Dylan, Highway 61 Revisited So there's the precedent. 
Overall, by the way, your analysis of this case appears to show you to believe that crazy people "act crazy" all the time. Unfortunately, one of the hallmarks of true nuttiness is unpredictability, and irrationality doesn't necessary look irrational. These people don't all just stand around drooling, or bathe in the blood of their victims. Laney could very well have called 911 with the idea that she'd get the death penalty and thus be "martyred" for God.quote:
Dave.. come on man, thats easy, how would we tell? Im fairly certain Jesus wouldn't be going around bashing children's heads with rocks.
Apparently, you either missed my point, or think that there's a sharp demarcation between "sane" and "insane," and nobody lives anywhere close to that line (they're either wholly sane or wholly insane). Sorry to say, but I think that a few psychology classes coupled with TV dramatizations of our legal and criminal processes have given you a fairly skewed view of reality.
I like CSI, also, but annoy the hell out of my wife by pointing out all the crap that no real self-respecting crime scene investigator would do (but are done in the show on a regular basis because they've gotta cram a story into 46 minutes).
Oh, Robb: since you're the first of the faithful to poke a toe into this thread, would you care to comment on the questions I asked in the OP? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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spindizy
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 17:54:24 [Permalink]
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Dave W. wrote:
quote:
Well, one of the assumptions is that God is ineffable. Clearly, this horrific act could, conceivably, fit into "God's perfect plan" somehow (a guess might be that perhaps the kids would have grown up to be pure evil). And you, being a mere mortal and not privvy to the mind of God, are in no position to question His allegedly-infinite wisdom.
You use the word ineffable, but im not sure why, yes, God may be indescribable or incapable of being expressed, but im not sure what that fact has to do with the horrific act being discussed, I think the word you may have been searching for is infallible. BTW, "privy" has one v.
Dave W. wrote:
quote:
Overall, by the way, your analysis of this case appears to show you to believe that crazy people "act crazy" all the time. Unfortunately, one of the hallmarks of true nuttiness is unpredictability, and irrationality doesn't necessary look irrational. These people don't all just stand around drooling, or bathe in the blood of their victims. Laney could very well have called 911 with the idea that she'd get the death penalty and thus be "martyred" for God.
Nowhere in my post do I mean to convey that I believe that crazy people act crazy all the time. What I meant when I said "You just have to watch their actions" was not that you watch to see if they act crazy or not, I was referring to the actions they make. As in healing, or helping, the antithesis of Dee Laney's actions. You asked "How can we tell the difference between a delusional person and the real Son of God?" to which I responded "Watch their actions."
Yes, I know that the insane have what drunks call "Moments of clarity" and some may even have years of clarity, but that doesn't change the fact that im fully aware that they "don't all just stand around drooling, or bathe in the blood of their victims." Besides, if she wanted to be a martyr, why did her lawyers push for insanity? Why did she not just wave her right to counsel and plead guilty? No one knows why she called 911, and that includes me, I never claimed to know. Maybe she felt guilty, maybe she realized what she'd done, crazy or not, I don't understand how she didn't think that what she was doing was wrong.
Dave W. wrote:
quote:
spindizy wrote:
quote:
Dave.. come on man, thats easy, how would we tell? Im fairly certain Jesus wouldn't be going around bashing children's heads with rocks.
Apparently, you either missed my point, or think that there's a sharp demarcation between "sane" and "insane," and nobody lives anywhere close to that line (they're either wholly sane or wholly insane). Sorry to say, but I think that a few psychology classes coupled with TV dramatizations of our legal and criminal processes have given you a fairly skewed view of reality.
Dave, I understand that "Everyone is diffrent" I know that in some instances, there IS a sharp demarcation between sane and insane, but in others, the line gets downright unnoticeable, as Oscar Levant once said "There is a fine line between genious and insanity, I have erased this line." I don't understand how you can make judgements about my views of reality based on the fact that I said I've taken some psych and that I watch CSI and L&O, quite frankly, both of those facts had ZERO to do with this post, and the only reason that they were even brought up is because I was asked if I was a lawyer or a psychologist. Apparently not everyone shares your views about me or my post. You don't even know me, "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. [Mt. 7:1-2]
Dave W. wrote:
quote:
I like CSI, also, but annoy the hell out of my wife by pointing out all the crap that no real self-respecting crime scene investigator would do (but are done in the show on a regular basis because they've gotta cram a story into 46 minutes).
Some crime scene investigators do more than what they show on CSI, watch "The System" or "Forensic Files" on CourtTv some time, truth really is stranger than fiction.
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 18:01:31 [Permalink]
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"Insane" is a legal term, not a medical term. I think it's important to remember that lawyers and judges are not psychiatrists or medical doctors.
quote:
Mental illness at the time of the offense is a prerequisite for a not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity ruling, but legal insanity is not simply a judgment of whether or not a person has a mental illness. The law varies from state to state, but in most courts that recognize the "insanity defense," someone is found to be legally insane if he or she meets one of three conditions:
Because of a mental disorder, the defendant did not understand that what he or she was doing was illegal.
Because of a mental disorder, the defendant did not know what he or she was doing.
Because of a mental disorder, the defendant was compelled to commit the crime by an irresistible force.
From howstuffworks.com. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 19:01:16 [Permalink]
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spindizy wrote:quote:
You use the word ineffable, but im not sure why, yes, God may be indescribable or incapable of being expressed, but im not sure what that fact has to do with the horrific act being discussed, I think the word you may have been searching for is infallible.
Nope, I have been laboring for years under the "knowledge" that 'ineffable' is a synonym for 'incomprehensible'. Thanks for the correction. With that word change, perhaps my meaning becomes clear?quote:
BTW, "privy" has one v.
By the way, that was a typo.quote:
Nowhere in my post do I mean to convey that I believe that crazy people act crazy all the time. What I meant when I said "You just have to watch their actions" was not that you watch to see if they act crazy or not, I was referring to the actions they make. As in healing, or helping, the antithesis of Dee Laney's actions. You asked "How can we tell the difference between a delusional person and the real Son of God?" to which I responded "Watch their actions."
No, I was responding to the overall tone of your post, which said, in effect, "look at all these things Laney did, which a sane person would do if out commit the same crimes." It simply doesn't matter. If she's sick (and experts on both sides of the courtroom agreed that she was mentally ill), there's no way to predict or even postdict what she "should" have done. Her actions have convinced you of her sanity, but they shouldn't have. A person who was sane when committing the crimes wouldn't have called the cops, but would have attempted to escape.quote:
Yes, I know that the insane have what drunks call "Moments of clarity" and some may even have years of clarity, but that doesn't change the fact that im fully aware that they "don't all just stand around drooling, or bathe in the blood of their victims." Besides, if she wanted to be a martyr, why did her lawyers push for insanity? Why did she not just wave her right to counsel and plead guilty?
Because if you confess, the death penalty is often taken off the table. Her lawyers, not being insane themselves, and wishing to continue to practice law, defended her to the best of their ability.quote:
No one knows why she called 911, and that includes me, I never claimed to know.
No, it's implied in how you spoke about the 911 call.quote:
Maybe she felt guilty, maybe she realized what she'd done, crazy or not, I don't understand how she didn't think that what she was doing was wrong.
Because she was nuts! This is, again, a condition that is often incomprehensible, even to those living with and/or treating mental disease. Are you now saying your opinion is based upon little more than your incredulity towards the defense's assertions?quote:
Dave, I understand that "Everyone is diffrent" I know that in some instances, there IS a sharp demarcation between sane and insane, but in others, the line gets downright unnoticeable, as Oscar Levant once said "There is a fine line between genious and insanity, I have erased this line." I don't understand how you can make judgements about my views of reality based on the fact that I said I've taken some psych and that I watch CSI and L&O, quite frankly, both of those facts had ZERO to do with this post, and the only reason that they were even brought up is because I was asked if I was a lawyer or a psychologist.
I saw @tomic's question as probing your expertise in judging insanity cases. My opinions about what you've expressed are based upon nothing more than my understanding of what you've expressed, which is that all of the experts who testified as to Laney's mental state at the time of the crimes were wrong. A few psych classes and TV shows don't seem to me to be ample basis for overturning a verdict which both the defense and prosecution appear to be satisfied with (as I haven't yet seen any calls for an appeal).quote:
Apparently not everyone shares your views about me or my post.
I dunno. Has anyone else replied to it yet?quote:
You don't even know me, "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. [Mt. 7:1-2]
Please, take the plank out of your own eye (your judgement of Laney's mental state) before going after the splinter in mine (my judgement of you). Besides which, I have no fear of God's judgement, as I suspect no gods exist, so quoting Matthew at me won't work real well. That's why I was asking questions to the faithful in my OP.quote:
Some crime scene investigators do more than what they show on CSI, watch "The System" or "Forensic Files" on CourtTv some time, truth really is stranger than fiction.
I know, which is why I'm puzzling over your certitude on the Laney case. This is, after all, the Skeptic Friends Network, and I'm skeptical of your armchair psychiatry. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 09:35:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, Robb: since you're the first of the faithful to poke a toe into this thread, would you care to comment on the questions I asked in the OP?
Sure,
quote:
1) If Jesus, in his youth (prior to his performance of miracles), were running around today, would he get institutionalized for claiming to be the Son of God? At the very least, would it not be the case that many priests, ministers, pastors, etc. would tell him to seek the help of a mental health professional? How can we tell the difference between a delusional person and the real Son of God?
1) You may be right, if a child was running around claiming to be the Son of God people might refer him to a psychiatrist. We know that Jesus was the Son of God because he fulfilled prophecy from the OT and performed miracles that are consistent with the character of God. The good thing is that we know how Jesus will come back from Revelation 19:11-16, we just do not know when. I think from this description in Revelation, we will know that it is Jesus. So my take is if a child believes he is the Son of God, scripture indicates that he is not and he probably should see a psychiatrist.
quote:
2) It's been argued here that without belief in God, people won't know right from wrong. From the above case, it seems clear that belief in God is no guarantor of morality. How is it possible to tell willful sinning (using "free will" to choose to spit on God's rules) from insanity?
2 ) Only God and the person sinning really know if it is willful are not. Believing in Jesus will not make a person perfect or stop sinning. God will change people over time to sin less but we will never be able to stop sinning completely while we are on this earth. As for knowing right from wrong, if there is no absolute truth then we all just make up our own morality and who's to say who is right. That's my two cents on morality.
quote:
3) And how can we mere mortals tell the difference between either insanity or willful sin, and a case where God really does speak to someone, and tell them to do something horrendous?
3) When God tells you to do something, Christians compare what He says against the Bibles teaching of the character of God and his word. If God tells you to do something that contradicts the Bible, or is out of his character then it is not God speaking to you. God does not change over time, neither do his laws.
Whether a person is insane or not seems to be up to society to determine. If you are insane you do not know what is right or wrong or what sin is. God will not hold them accountable for this willful sin. Some of the mentally ill people in the Bible were actually demon possessed, demon possession probably occurs today, I don't think Mrs. Laney was demon possessed because medication has seemed to help her.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 04:43:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
3) When God tells you to do something, Christians compare what He says against the Bibles teaching of the character of God and his word. If God tells you to do something that contradicts the Bible, or is out of his character then it is not God speaking to you. God does not change over time, neither do his laws.
If there are instances of God ordering women and children slain as in the OT, then isn't there presidence of murdering children? So it could very well be god speaking to her.
quote:
Whether a person is insane or not seems to be up to society to determine. If you are insane you do not know what is right or wrong or what sin is. God will not hold them accountable for this willful sin.
If you ask God for forgivness as any good Christian would, God will not hold you accountable for anything you do. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 08:19:55 [Permalink]
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I think that the moral here is; aviod people who have converstionns with supernatural entites. The voice of 'God' might really be 'Satan' pulling your leg.
Hearing disembodied voices is never a good thing and it's worse to answer them, and even worse yet to believe them.
The woman is stark, raving mad, IMO.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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