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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2004 : 19:46:57
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I have heard MANY people on here say the phrase "thats not the kind of God I believe in". To me this is maybe the stupidest phrase in the english language. And I'm not exagerating even slightly. Even if you are an athiest it is still stupid. The idea that God answers to you is just ridiculous. I hear people say this most often when speaking on the issue of Hell. Hears a newsflash....IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT HIM! And it takes alot more than a little arrogence if you think otherwise. The utter gaul of thinking God wastes a moment caring what anyone thinks about him. He set the rules clearly if don't like them....YOUR LOSS!
He's not a politicly correct God. He does not have to be. People use woman in leadership issues as a hang-up for Christians, as if it's an issue that we have to answer to. Don't get me wrong, I respect woman as much as is possible. Believe they are equal to men in every way in the eyes of God and myself. But God said "they should not be in positions of spiritual leadership over men". So I don't care hat people think about my positions. I only care what God thinks about my position.
Moved to the Religion Folder - Dave W.
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Edited by - byhisgrace88 on 04/03/2004 19:48:11
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 20:36:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I have heard MANY people on here say the phrase "thats not the kind of God I believe in". To me this is maybe the stupidest phrase in the english language. And I'm not exagerating even slightly. Even if you are an athiest it is still stupid. The idea that God answers to you is just ridiculous. I hear people say this most often when speaking on the issue of Hell. Hears a newsflash....IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT HIM! And it takes alot more than a little arrogence if you think otherwise. The utter gaul of thinking God wastes a moment caring what anyone thinks about him. He set the rules clearly if don't like them....YOUR LOSS!
This makes it seem as though the Christian god is indifferent to the plight of his children, his creations. That the Christian god is unmoved by expression of love toward it or hope because of it. It doesn't care what its children think and feel. Does this imply that the Christian god is not a loving and caring god ? Doesn't this idea make Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, etc liars ?
quote:
He's not a politicly correct God. He does not have to be. People use woman in leadership issues as a hang-up for Christians, as if it's an issue that we have to answer to.
In my mind women being subservient to men is clear indication that men wrote the bible. A god would understand their importance to the stability and core values of his favorite species.
quote:
Don't get me wrong, I respect woman as much as is possible. Believe they are equal to men in every way in the eyes of God and myself. But God said "they should not be in positions of spiritual leadership over men".
If they are equal to men in every way then why shouldn't they hold spiritual leadership roles equivalent to men. I suspect that you are trying to talk out of both side of your mouth and that your true feelings about women are contained in several biblical verses.
quote:
So I don't care hat people think about my positions. I only care what God thinks about my position.
So your position in no way involves what you think ? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 22:31:18 [Permalink]
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creation88 wrote:quote:
The utter gaul of thinking God wastes a moment caring what anyone thinks about him.
Well, I've just got to roll my eyes over this sentence. After all, if you don't love God, you go to hell. He must care what people think of Him, or he wouldn't condemn a person to the ultimate punishment for not loving Him.
Besides which, the typical image of the Christian God is one that I cannot respect as an all-powerful being. He is petty, mean, and vindictive. He's a schoolyard bully. And His "rules" make little logical sense, and cannot be agreed upon by the people who read them.
In other words, He's not the sort of God I could trust with my "everlasting soul" (if I have one, that is). If, after I die, I find out He actually exists, I will strive to curse His name as I am tormented, just as I do with other idiots who make my existence more difficult without good cause.quote:
So I don't care hat people think about my positions. I only care what God thinks about my position.
What if God doesn't exist? And since you claim He's busy not caring what people think about Him, why should He give a rat's ass about your "position?" Shouldn't He only care about whether or not you've followed His bizarre set of rules? Your "position" (that certain opinions are "stupid") - and the way you express that position - certainly doesn't seem to follow the "love your neighbors as you love yourself" commandment, now does it?
Actually, the last time I called God a bully, you got upset at me. Well, since you say that He doesn't care what I think, why the hell did you care what I think? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 02:24:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I have heard MANY people on here say the phrase "thats not the kind of God I believe in". To me this is maybe the stupidest phrase in the english language. And I'm not exagerating even slightly. Even if you are an athiest it is still stupid.
If one is an Atheist, it's even more stupid, since that person don't even believe there is a God to begin with.
The times in my past when I used the phrase "That's not the kind of God I believe in", I used it in the context that I disagree with the other person's perception of God. When I thought his idea of God was misguided.
quote:
The idea that God answers to you is just ridiculous.
I don't think so. For any kind of relationship to be possible, communication must be bilateral. How am I supposed to respect anyone if I am not allowed to hold that someone accountable for his/her actions?
Without these two major ingredients, there is no relationship, and I would not be anything more than an object for display on God's mantelpiece. And that is a position that I refuse to accept. That is one of the many reasons I reject the idea that there is a God that I have to answer to.
quote:
The utter gaul of thinking God wastes a moment caring what anyone thinks about him.
<snip>
I only care what God thinks about my position.
Disregarding the lack of logic, do you even realise the level of egocentricity you are displaying? If God don't care what anyone thinks, what makes you believe that YOU are so special he would care about you and no one else?
quote:
Believe they are equal to men in every way in the eyes of God and myself. But God said "they should not be in positions of spiritual leadership over men".
But if God said so, then men and women are not equal in the eyes of God. Again, I can't grasp the leaps of logic you make. In the first sentence you say "equal", in the next you quote scripture that clearly implies "not equal".
Could you please make up your mind? This constant shifting of your position is making me dizzy. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 07:29:26 [Permalink]
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Just curious, C88: are the people who believe in a different kind of God than you do wrong? Do you have a special knowledge about God's words and rules that the rest of the universe doesn't?
The phrase "that's not the kind of God I believe in" strikes me as a highly intelligent, thoughtful phrase. I certainly don't believe in the same god that the 9/11 hijackers believed in, nor the same god that the Klu Klux Klan believe in. Do you?
C88, you seem hung up on the women and equality issue. Why is that? What is so frightening about a woman in a position of spiritual leadership? And please don't point to the Bible, because I think this belief is more about YOU and your family's values than about the Bible. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 21:18:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
C88, you seem hung up on the women and equality issue. Why is that? What is so frightening about a woman in a position of spiritual leadership? And please don't point to the Bible, because I think this belief is more about YOU and your family's values than about the Bible
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Don't even give me that load of garbage. Nothing frightens me about a woman in leadrership. Your little "please don't point to the Bible" antic is just stupid. I am purely basing this on what the Bible says.
Everyone seems to think that if someone is restricted from something it means that they are inferior. Because the Bible restricts woman from leadership in the church says nothing about there equalitie as human beings.
quote:
What if God doesn't exist? And since you claim He's busy not caring what people think about Him, why should He give a rat's ass about your "position?"
It's not that he does not care what you think, its that he's not going to change something because you dis-agree with him.
quote:
Besides which, the typical image of the Christian God is one that I cannot respect as an all-powerful being. He is petty, mean, and vindictive. He's a schoolyard bully. And His "rules" make little logical sense, and cannot be agreed upon by the people who read them.
This is exactly my point. You Dave W. believe that his rules are petty and mean. But the God I believe in is so infinitly smarter and wiser than you or me. That you accusing him of being "petty and mean" is like a two year old challenging Albert Einstein on the theory of relativity. As is me Adam (a.k.a C88) speaking what I believe are truths about him.
quote:
The phrase "that's not the kind of God I believe in" strikes me as a highly intelligent, thoughtful phrase. I certainly don't believe in the same god that the 9/11 hijackers believed in, nor the same god that the Klu Klux Klan believe in. Do you?
Nor do I believe in these God's, but if they were the real God's the statment still would not work. But assuming there is a God for a minute. Then that God is God. Therefore it does not matter if it's "the kind of God you believe in", because he/she is still God no matter what you think. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 10:02:11 [Permalink]
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creation88 wrote:quote:
It's not that he does not care what you think, its that he's not going to change something because you dis-agree with him.
That's fine. He can show me I'm wrong after I'm dead and stripped of my free will, anyway. (No matter whether you believe in God or not - you've got to agree that we will no longer be allowed to make choices after we're dead.)quote:
This is exactly my point. You Dave W. believe that his rules are petty and mean. But the God I believe in is so infinitly smarter and wiser than you or me. That you accusing him of being "petty and mean" is like a two year old challenging Albert Einstein on the theory of relativity.
A false analogy. Einstein never attributed moral attributes to the theory of relativity. You aren't doomed to hell for not believing in it.
And it's the belief that God damns people to Hell for relatively minor transgressions of this arbitrary set of rules which I find silly. As you said, God is allededly infinitely wise, and surely wouldn't require worship from mere mortals for a ticket to Heaven.
God's will doesn't answer to you, either, creation88. If God is truly ineffable, then the idea that He won't change His mind is ludicrous. And if the rulebook you worship is wrong (being at least 2,000 years out of date), then you may be the one who is doomed.
If a god (or gods) exists, it'll be up to Him/Her/It/Them to figure out what to do with me after I'm dead, and for that much, I'm thankful: it won't be you (or any other Christian) who will judge and sentence me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 12:40:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
C88, you seem hung up on the women and equality issue. Why is that? What is so frightening about a woman in a position of spiritual leadership? And please don't point to the Bible, because I think this belief is more about YOU and your family's values than about the Bible
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Don't even give me that load of garbage. Nothing frightens me about a woman in leadrership. Your little "please don't point to the Bible" antic is just stupid. I am purely basing this on what the Bible says.
Everyone seems to think that if someone is restricted from something it means that they are inferior. Because the Bible restricts woman from leadership in the church says nothing about there equalitie as human beings.
Women may not hold leadership positions within the church due to a Bible stricture. This in an of itself does directly speak to equality. It infers through practice that women are somehow cannot be as holy as men.
quote:
quote:
What if God doesn't exist? And since you claim He's busy not caring what people think about Him, why should He give a rat's ass about your "position?"
It's not that he does not care what you think, its that he's not going to change something because you dis-agree with him.
And atheists and other religions are asking Him to change....how?
Even Christians claim that it is impossible to know the mind of God. How do you know that your or anyone elses opinion of what God is can be determined correct or incorrect?
quote:
quote:
Besides which, the typical image of the Christian God is one that I cannot respect as an all-powerful being. He is petty, mean, and vindictive. He's a schoolyard bully. And His "rules" make little logical sense, and cannot be agreed upon by the people who read them.
This is exactly my point. You Dave W. believe that his rules are petty and mean. But the God I believe in is so infinitly smarter and wiser than you or me. That you accusing him of being "petty and mean" is like a two year old challenging Albert Einstein on the theory of relativity. As is me Adam (a.k.a C88) speaking what I believe are truths about him.
The Talmudic law contained in Leviticus is most definately based on a society which is viewed by current society as mean spirited. The typical image presented by the more radical fundamentalist branches of Christianity is that of the jealous and vengeful God, not the loving and nurturing one.
quote:
quote:
The phrase "that's not the kind of God I believe in" strikes me as a highly intelligent, thoughtful phrase. I certainly don't believe in the same god that the 9/11 hijackers believed in, nor the same god that the Klu Klux Klan believe in. Do you?
Nor do I believe in these God's, but if they were the real God's the statment still would not work. But assuming there is a God for a minute. Then that God is God. Therefore it does not matter if it's "the kind of God you believe in", because he/she is still God no matter what you think.
But all those conceptions of God are there and each is valid in its own way. You are correct that whatever conceptions that people have about a supposed deity, that deity would likely not care about that limit placed on it by an inferior race. The question remains "Is your veiw of God correct". That question cannot be answered in any way but a personal opinion on the nature of God. You have voiced your opinion on what God is, we don't necessarily agree with it. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 16:18:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
A false analogy. Einstein never attributed moral attributes to the theory of relativity. You aren't doomed to hell for not believing in it.
And it's the belief that God damns people to Hell for relatively minor transgressions of this arbitrary set of rules which I find silly. As you said, God is allededly infinitely wise, and surely wouldn't require worship from mere mortals for a ticket to Heaven.
God's will doesn't answer to you, either, creation88. If God is truly ineffable, then the idea that He won't change His mind is ludicrous. And if the rulebook you worship is wrong (being at least 2,000 years out of date), then you may be the one who is doomed.
If a god (or gods) exists, it'll be up to Him/Her/It/Them to figure out what to do with me after I'm dead, and for that much, I'm thankful: it won't be you (or any other Christian) who will judge and sentence me.
Not a false analogy at all. An analogy is comparing one thing to another, and seeing helpful similarities. Not speaking to it in every way concievable. Of course Einstein's theory did not have eternal implications. But me mentioning him as a genius, with a theory that he made himself, and having a toddler try to correct him on it, is an almost perfect analogy if I do say so myself.
How are his rules arbitrary? Let's see, love nothing more than him. Well that seems fair considering we would not be here if it was not for him... Don't kill. I think we can all agree on that one... Keep sex sacred. *gasp* Oh no that sounds like an awful thing to have happen...Honor you father and mother. Certainly we can at least try to do that... Do not lie. Oh yes, this world would be alot better place if there was more lieing... Do not steal. I would like this one but it's a little to arbitrary for me.
So you get my point. I think we can agree at least in theory with every one of his "arbitrary rules". And as for your statement on needing worship from us. For one thing once again no matter what I say your still coming from a Roman Catholic point of view. I don't believe that you must go to church to get to heaven. Though I would STRONGLY discourage anyone from doing this, for there own spiritual well being. And not to sound condesending, but you are saying this from a very non-christian point of view. We go to church every Sunday because we WANT to. Not because we feel obligated. Church is maybe my favorite event of every week. We worship God because we know he deserves it. And it's what we want to do.
And you saying that the bible is "2,000 years out of date". This does not work for me. Once again assuming God is all powerful and omnicient. He knew what was going to happen, he would not make a book which only applied for a short period of time.
quote:
Women may not hold leadership positions within the church due to a Bible stricture. This in an of itself does directly speak to equality. It infers through practice that women are somehow cannot be as holy as men.
Not at all. Some of the most revered people in scripture were woman.
quote:
And atheists and other religions are asking Him to change....how?
Even Christians claim that it is impossible to know the mind of God. How do you know that your or anyone elses opinion of what God is can be determined correct or incorrect?
In everything they do. More people would be christians if there were no restrictions. If he changed, people would come.
And we don't have to determine what is correct vs. incorrect. Because he tells us directly, what is correct vs. incorrect.
quote:
The Talmudic law contained in Leviticus is most definately based on a society which is viewed by current society as mean spirited.
Who cares what "current society" thinks. Current society is gennerally messed up place. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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TaterBlade
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 16:35:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
What if God doesn't exist? And since you claim He's busy not caring what people think about Him, why should He give a rat's ass about your "position?" Shouldn't He only care about whether or not you've followed His bizarre set of rules? Your "position" (that certain opinions are "stupid") - and the way you express that position - certainly doesn't seem to follow the "love your neighbors as you love yourself" commandment, now does it? Actually, the last time I called God a bully, you got upset at me. Well, since you say that He doesn't care what I think, why the hell did you care what I think?
Hi, Dave
Thanks for welcoming me in the Air America thread.
Although we were at odds there, I couldn't agree with you more here.
I work for a school district in NW Montana and I am on spring break. I have some time this week (I am waiting for all the ice to melt so I can take out my new ski boat.) I hope that doesn't make me a godless, materialistic prick, so for a little redemption I am looking forward to reading and participating with all you other skeptics. |
"Black holes are where God divided by zero"
Steven Wright |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 17:00:13 [Permalink]
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Hi Tater, and welcome! Hoping you enjoy the forum.
C'88, I've been staying out of these discussions lately (I've been in so many that they are boring the habeneros out of me), but I still follow them and I have a small problem with the following remark:
quote:
And we don't have to determine what is correct vs. incorrect. Because he tells us directly, what is correct vs. incorrect.
Is this to say that God should do our thinking for us, and it is not possible for, say, a Muslim or Buddist, or even an atheist to have ethics and morals, and a working conscience? And that examining our surroundings and society criticly is a waste of time?
If so, what is the point of having the ability to reason at all?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/05/2004 17:07:51 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 17:12:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
How are his rules arbitrary? Let's see, love nothing more than him. Well that seems fair considering we would not be here if it was not for him... Don't kill. I think we can all agree on that one... Keep sex sacred. *gasp* Oh no that sounds like an awful thing to have happen...Honor you father and mother. Certainly we can at least try to do that... Do not lie. Oh yes, this world would be alot better place if there was more lieing... Do not steal. I would like this one but it's a little to arbitrary for me.
Yes, I do think your selection of commandments are good ones. But then again, I think the bible also gives for a lot of crimes the death penalty and that is something I absolutely disagree with (for example exodus 22, leviticus 20). Also, the punishing of respectively parents or children for the sins of their children or parents seems more than a little odd to me. And I probably can give you a list which is a lot longer if I really try. You can't ignore all those.
But back to the subject. I agree with you if you say that not liking God (yours or anyone elses) is no reason for not believing in Him. If God exists, God is who /what He is, whether you like it or not.
But then again, I don't need that kind of excuse, I think there are a lot more reasons for not believing in God (or at least, not in the God you refer to).
I do think that everytime you have a theological argument with someone else, what you are really saying is: "That is not the kind of God I believe in." So that way, I don't think that the sentence is the most stupid sentence in English language. I actually think it makes a lot of sense.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 17:17:47 [Permalink]
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C88, you and every other Christian on the planet interprets the Bible in whatever way they want to. You act as if you are following God's word, as if He whispered it directly in your ear. He didn't, you know.
I suspect that religious people embrace religious concepts that reflect what they already believe. Many Christians accept women in positions of spiritual leadership (whatever that means.) In fact, some churches ordain women pastors, don't they?
So, your interpretation of the Bible as disallowing women as spiritual leaders is not accepted by all Christians. Which tells me it reflects YOUR sexist beliefs about women in positions of power.
Pssst: the Bible was written before suffrage, the ERA, the birth control pill, and the women's rights movement. How the hell can it be relevant in today's society on that issue? |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 17:34:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
How are his rules arbitrary? ... lying, stealing, killing ...
So you get my point. I think we can agree at least in theory with every one of his "arbitrary rules".
These basic rules predate their recording in the bible. The corner stone of a successful society is realizing that through cooperation with one another each individual would be more successful in providing for the basic needs for survival. These three (at least two of them anyway) things were recognized as destructive in a civil society. So rules/laws were established to discourage individuals from stealing and killing. With or without gods these laws would still exist.
quote:
And you saying that the bible is "2,000 years out of date". This does not work for me. Once again assuming God is all powerful and omnicient. He knew what was going to happen, he would not make a book which only applied for a short period of time.
Unless this god is the work of human authors from 2000 years ago. Omnipotence and omniscience is another thread so I won't go into that.
quote:
Who cares what "current society" thinks. Current society is gennerally messed up place.
I agree. Likely due to a lot of irrational thinking based upon an excessive reliance/faith in the supernatural. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 20:40:42 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
Not a false analogy at all. An analogy is comparing one thing to another, and seeing helpful similarities. Not speaking to it in every way concievable.
No, if the two things aren't comparable on the salient points, the analogy is false.quote:
Of course Einstein's theory did not have eternal implications. But me mentioning him as a genius, with a theory that he made himself, and having a toddler try to correct him on it, is an almost perfect analogy if I do say so myself.
Again, no. The theory of relativity doesn't state that if we don't love it, we will go to hell. It doesn't claim to be omnipotent. If you want to make the comparison between us and toddlers with respect to God and a bad parent, that would be apt:
God (the father) finds out that we (the toddler) have been thumbing our nose at Him behind His back (breaking the "love God" commandment). In punishment for this, without explanation or recourse, God (the father) tells us (the toddlers) to go to Hell (to leave the house and never return). A fine thing to do to a two-year-old. God is a jerk.quote:
...So you get my point. I think we can agree at least in theory with every one of his "arbitrary rules".
No, we can't, because you are picking-and-choosing the laws you wish to examine. If you look at the whole set of laws (which Jesus said were in effect until "heaven and earth pass away"), there's quite a bit of crazy stuff in there. We're not to wear clothes made from two kinds of fiber, or we get the death penalty. We're not to cook lamb in its own blood (or was that in its mother's milk? I'm confused already). If you've got a stubborn and wicked son, all of the men in town are supposed to stone him to death (tough to do in, say, New York City). These rules are nuts, without apparent rhyme or reason. An infinitely-wise being should be able to do better by those He expects to love Him, by explaining why these rules are necessary. Following rules without understanding them does not breed respect.quote:
And as for your statement on needing worship from us. For one thing once again no matter what I say your still coming from a Roman Catholic point of view. I don't believe that you must go to church to get to heaven. Though I would STRONGLY discourage anyone from doing this, for there own spiritual well being. And not to sound condesending, but you are saying this from a very non-christian point of view. We go to church every Sunday because we WANT to. Not because we feel obligated. Church is maybe my favorite event of every week. We worship God because we know he deserves it. And it's what we want to do.
Who said anything about going to church? I sure didn't. God is infinitely insecure if He has a need to instruct people that they need to love Him. If, after all, God weren't so capricious and generally nasty, I might have been able to love Him without Him telling me that I had to in order to spend eternity with Him. If God were just a person, he'd be the guy that nobody likes, because he's so incredibly needy and venomous. He's the guy who would vandalize the home of the girl he's got a crush on because she laughed at him in school ("she'll change her mind and like me after that!").quote:
And you saying that the bible is "2,000 years out of date". This does not work for me. Once again assuming God is all powerful and omnicient. He knew what was going to happen, he would not make a book which only applied for a short period of time.
Demonstrate it. So far as I know, there isn't a single passage in the Bible which accurately and unambiguously predicts anything which has happened in the last 1,970 years or so.
So, how do you know that the largely-anonymous authors of the Bible knew exactly what God said, and wrote it down without error? As I said before (an important point you didn't address): people who read the same words in the same Bible are often unable to agree on their meaning. This is the reason we have Catholics and Protestants. Wars have been fought over the Bible's meaning. And when I read the Bible, and I wind up with a different opinion than either of those two large groups.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 21:46:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
How are his rules arbitrary? Let's see, love nothing more than him. Well that seems fair considering we would not be here if it was not for him... Don't kill. I think we can all agree on that one... Keep sex sacred. *gasp* Oh no that sounds like an awful thing to have happen...Honor you father and mother. Certainly we can at least try to do that... Do not lie. Oh yes, this world would be alot better place if there was more lieing... Do not steal. I would like this one but it's a little to arbitrary for me.
Codes of Law and codes of conduct were written down by other societies before the Bible was written. They are almost "universal" to human kind, and I can not see any reason why someone writing the Bible would have excluded them.
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So you get my point.
Your attempts at being ironic doesn't strengthen your argument.
Just because there are codes of laws in the Bible doesn't mean that whoever wrote them invented them. Especially since the identity of the author of Exodus and Leviticus is in dispute.
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I think we can agree at least in theory with every one of his "arbitrary rules".
Some of them are good, some of them are bad. Especially some of the punishments are bad and disproportional.
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I don't believe that you must go to church to get to heaven.
Neither did I when I was a member of the Pentecostal Church.
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And you saying that the bible is "2,000 years out of date". This does not work for me. Once again assuming God is all powerful and omniscient. He knew what was going to happen, he would not make a book which only applied for a short period of time.
Then explain to me why the world is so out of sync from the Bible. And I'm not talking about the present society. Five hundred years ago, even thousand years ago the society had changed so much from what it was when Jesus allegedly walked the earth.
The difference was so great that the Bible had to undergo a major revisement some time in the 1300's.
Viewing the Bible's place in the society, one has to decide to choose between two things:
1) Either use the Bible as a literal guide to control the society "according to God's will". This include denying women positions as spiritual leaders. This was tried and failed miserably during the inquisition.
2) Interpreting the Bible in the context of current society. This way the Bible becomes flexible and allows for a greater spirituality, since it does not order* certain kinds of worship, but all expressions of faith in Jesus comes from free will.
By accepting that the writings of Paul is sexist, and goes against equality, it is easy to accept women in spiritual leadership. I have witnessed several women in such positions, and they were better leaders than any of the men present.
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Women may not hold leadership positions within the church due to a Bible stricture. This in an of itself does directly speak to equality. It infers through practice that women are somehow cannot be as holy as men.
Not at all. Some of the most revered people in scripture were woman.
They were, but that does not get you off the hook. Denying women positions of spiritual leadership is still sexist. No matter how much you revere them.
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The Talmudic law contained in Leviticus is most definitely based on a society which is viewed by current society as mean spirited.
Who cares what "current society" thinks. Current society is gennerally messed up place.
So you think that stoning a woman to death because she was raped within the city is OK?
I call that mean-spirited, but you obviously think that's OK, since my view "of it being mean spirited" is messed up.
This goes back to the paragraph where we have to decide if we are going to be conservative and use the Bible as the model to society, and force people to adhere to every whim of the authors of it.
I don't accept the idea of forcing religious beliefs on people, and will fight it where ever I find it.
*Edited for clarification |
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| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/05/2004 21:59:00 |
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