|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2004 : 07:06:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
Women may not hold leadership positions within the church due to a Bible stricture. This in an of itself does directly speak to equality. It infers through practice that women are somehow cannot be as holy as men.
Not at all. Some of the most revered people in scripture were woman.
Perhaps you could point out the ones which were spiritually significant?
Mary - revered for giving birth to Jesus
Thats the only one that I can think of as revered.
However, this little gem from Leviticus 12:2-5 whereby a woman becomes "unclean" and in need of "purification" for different periods depending on the sex of the baby. (Males: unclean for 7 days, purified for 33. Females: unclean for 14 days, purified for 66.)
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days."
quote:
quote:
And atheists and other religions are asking Him to change....how?
Even Christians claim that it is impossible to know the mind of God. How do you know that your or anyone elses opinion of what God is can be determined correct or incorrect?
In everything they do. More people would be christians if there were no restrictions. If he changed, people would come.
And we don't have to determine what is correct vs. incorrect. Because he tells us directly, what is correct vs. incorrect.
So, by merely existing, atheists are somehow asking God to change. If God changed, more people would follow your version of God.
The second statement tends to indicate that you are claiming direct two way communication with the devine. If God spoke so plainly, then there would be direct evidence of His existance. Or are you claiming Bible inerrancy? Also, what makes your religious document any more valid than any other religious document which claims divine inspiration?
quote:
quote:
The Talmudic law contained in Leviticus is most definately based on a society which is viewed by current society as mean spirited.
Who cares what "current society" thinks. Current society is gennerally messed up place.
Societies evolve to deal with new situations. It was discovered that women actually have mental capacities equal to men. The society in which the Bible was written believed women were property of their husbands and fathers. It believed that women's lives were of less value than a man's life. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
 |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 12:53:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
If you look at the whole set of laws (which Jesus said were in effect until "heaven and earth pass away"), there's quite a bit of crazy stuff in there.
Dave, could you please name the (book,) chapter and verse where Jesus explicitly states that the whole set of laws are still in effect?
It is one of those verses I cannot recall from any bible studies I've participated in. It would be nice to know this specific one. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 16:00:14 [Permalink]
|
(edited for content)
Before I start, Renae....I am going to ignore your "sexist" stupidity, its ridiculous to even mention it so I will not respond to it anymore.
quote:
Perhaps you could point out the ones which were spiritually significant?
Mary - revered for giving birth to Jesus
Thats the only one that I can think of as revered.
Gladly. Esther was a woman who stood up to the king becaus of her faith. And Ruth is known as one of the holiest people in the Bible.
quote:
The second statement tends to indicate that you are claiming direct two way communication with the devine. If God spoke so plainly, then there would be direct evidence of His existance. Or are you claiming Bible inerrancy?
Why does everyone take every statement to an extreme. I say no woman in leadership, and am being made to look like a sexist blood sucking ape. I say he tells us directly, and all of a sudden people think I am saying that I talk to God personally.
I meant through the Bible, which I believe strongly in, tells me directly.
People need to stop trying to pin me down on things that I OBVIOUSLY don't even think. Try thinking before you post, it helps. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
| Edited by - byhisgrace88 on 04/06/2004 16:01:00 |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 17:15:02 [Permalink]
|
Creation88 wrote:quote:
And Ruth is known as one of the holiest people in the Bible.
Perhaps because she did everything her husband told her to? I'll admit to not remembering every nuance of the story, but I do recall that she was constantly dependent on other people, and did very little which people didn't suggest to her. The one independent act I can remember was her not wanting to go back to her home and the other Moabites (which the Bible describes as "abominations"). Had she done so, she wouldn't, of course, have had a great-grandson named David, who went on to subjugate the Moabites and kill two-thirds of them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 17:31:38 [Permalink]
|
C88, it doesn't matter where you point, be it to the Bible or the Koran or anywhere else: if your views are sexist, they're sexist. Period.
You believe women should be denied something which is afforded to men, simply by virtue of being born with a vagina rather than a penis. You see, I can't help that I wasn't blessed with a marvelous magical penis. Yet in your world view, I couldn't be your pastor.
If you don't see the sexism in your views, I suggest you read something OTHER THAN the Bible. Want some suggestions? |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 17:39:47 [Permalink]
|
quote:
C88, it doesn't matter where you point, be it to the Bible or the Koran or anywhere else: if your views are sexist, they're sexist. Period.
You believe women should be denied something which is afforded to men, simply by virtue of being born with a vagina rather than a penis. You see, I can't help that I wasn't blessed with a marvelous magical penis. Yet in your world view, I couldn't be your pastor.
If you don't see the sexism in your views, I suggest you read something OTHER THAN the Bible. Want some suggestions?
That's somewhat the point of this post for me. I could care less what you think I am. I am not sexist in the slightest. I respect woman more than most people I know. I am the only one who does not view them as a sex object. So you get over your foolish arrogence and martyrdom, and talk about things that are there. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 17:51:33 [Permalink]
|
Actually, I AM a sex object. It's one of the many things I am. I don't consider it an insult when a man finds me sexually attractive. Any man who thinks that ALL I am is a sex object, however, isn't worth my time.
I'm neither arrogant nor a martyr, C88. You, however, have a sexist, archaic view about women in the clergy. You think that because it's Biblical somehow, it's okay. But it's not.
Some good feminist writers you should check out, because you're smart enough to get what they're saying: Susan Faludi, Naomi Wolf (The Beauty Myth), Betty Friedan (The Feminine Mystique), Gloria Steinem. And for a different take on modern feminism (cause I believe in reading all sides): Camille Paglia or Katie Roiphe (The Morning After: Sex and Feminism on Campus).
Open your mind, C88. It's one of the best gifts you can give yourself. |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 18:43:47 [Permalink]
|
If you want to start giving refferences, read "The Feminine Appeal" by Carolyn Mahaney. It's coming from a christian point of view which you will dis-agree with, but it will at least eplain why I believe what I believe.
And don't accuse me of being close minded. You have no idea if I'm reading both sides of issues I'm speaking on, so don't talk when you don't know.
And no matter what you say you are extremly arrogent, and acting very much like a martyr. You assuming that your view on woman is so much better than mine is arrongent to the max. And you acting as if your so oppressed by people is one of the ultimate forms of martyrdom. Especially when these day men are made out to look alot worse than woman. We see television ad, after sitcoms, after comic strips, making men out to look like slobs who like nothing better than sex and beer. While this is sadly true in some cases, it's certainly not the norm. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 20:28:04 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Creation88 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I respect woman as much as is possible. Believe they are equal to men in every way in the eyes of God and myself. But God said "they should not be in positions of spiritual leadership over men".
Now without saying you are a sexist. You did say that you believe men and women to be equal in every way in the eyes of God and yourself. But the next thing you say is they should not be in a position of spiritual leadership. That's a difference and I think it is really hard to see differences as equal. What you say contradicts itself. Please explain.
The only way I can think of to resolve this is to separate the church in a men's and women's part, were men teach men and women teach women. They can never teach each other. Only then are men and women treated equally.
But back to the original discussion. Some have already pointed out why they think that "that is not the kind of God I believe in" is actually a very good phrase. I thought did not see any reactions to that yet (although I might have missed it, my apologies in that case). |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 20:47:15 [Permalink]
|
Look, kiddo, you need to knock off the insults. I'm neither a martyr nor arrogant, but I AM well-versed in feminist theory and I know sexism when I see it.
I'm not interested in backward archaic Christian viewpoints on anything, especially not on women and equality. I believe in the evolution of not only the earth, but of consciousness, morality, science, and culture.
Thankfully, most Americans (not including you, apparently) have moved on from the notion that women can't or shouldn't do anything men can do. Jeez--I learned that lesson in grade school. |
|
|
|
the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 22:13:28 [Permalink]
|
Heh. I just find it ironic that C88 is complaining about someone else acting like a "martyr" when I notice that it's xians who are doing most of the complaining!
Check out http://www.rr-bb.com in their "End Times" section if you don't believe me. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
|
|
|
ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 23:43:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
Heh. I just find it ironic that C88 is complaining about someone else acting like a "martyr" when I notice that it's xians who are doing most of the complaining!
Check out http://www.rr-bb.com in their "End Times" section if you don't believe me.
The thing I find ironic is the accusations of "arrogance" against anyone who doesn't knuckle under to fundie dogma.
I, for one, find it extremely difficult to envisage anything more arrogant than a human claiming that a set of peculiar socio-political prejudices derived partly from local cultural tradition and partly from from someone else's interpretation of one of many texts which have been held to be sacred is an accurate reflection of the mind of a putatively infinite, omnipotent, omniscient being.
In fact, I can't think of a better-paved road to Hell than to indulge in such unforgiveable presumption. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
|
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 05:04:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
But God said "they should not be in positions of spiritual leadership over men". So I don't care hat people think about my positions. I only care what God thinks about my position.
And, presumably, you also applaud God when he mandates pain in childbirth and the subjugation of women to men (Gen. 3:16). But what do we do with Leviticus? Should we, along with God, declare women unclean after childbirth and, in fact, unclean for twice as long if the child is a girl? Do we keep them out of the churches during this period? Should we, perhaps, send them to the back of the bus? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 06:50:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
(edited for content)
Before I start, Renae....I am going to ignore your "sexist" stupidity, its ridiculous to even mention it so I will not respond to it anymore.
quote:
Perhaps you could point out the ones which were spiritually significant?
Mary - revered for giving birth to Jesus
Thats the only one that I can think of as revered.
Gladly. Esther was a woman who stood up to the king becaus of her faith. And Ruth is known as one of the holiest people in the Bible.
Ruth - Did what her husband told her to. Not holy, but godly. There is a difference.
Esther - stood up for her faith. Was she considered a leader?
quote:
quote:
The second statement tends to indicate that you are claiming direct two way communication with the devine. If God spoke so plainly, then there would be direct evidence of His existance. Or are you claiming Bible inerrancy?
Why does everyone take every statement to an extreme. I say no woman in leadership, and am being made to look like a sexist blood sucking ape. I say he tells us directly, and all of a sudden people think I am saying that I talk to God personally.
I meant through the Bible, which I believe strongly in, tells me directly.
People need to stop trying to pin me down on things that I OBVIOUSLY don't even think. Try thinking before you post, it helps.
Try reading before you post. I was asking, since you claimed direct orders from God, was it due to direct two way communication or Bible inerrancy. The Bible is a written document open to interpretation of the reader. The written word is not direct communication except from the author. In this case, multiple authors. If you claim Biblical inerrancy, then you have to explain why we should reasonably believe that a document that existed solely as an oral tradition for 800 - 1,350 years would still be the absolute "word of God" when one cannot keep a single sentence the same when it is passed from one person to the next in a string of 20 people over an hour. (Psych 101 "telephone" game)
When you blindly accept the strictures of a 2000 year old society instead of the societal discoveries of the last century, you adhere to a sexist doctorine. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
