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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2004 : 22:11:05
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I recently saw the Shroud on the History Channel.
It basically built up the first 1/2 hour of the show with all this background, and then some scientists testing it etc. etc. Then it showed that the Shroud was dated though c-14 back to 1350, the first time it appeared in the history books. But then..... to my utter dismay, they kept going. They interviewed about 5 people who didn't agree with the dating (all 40+ years) and then 1 person who looked like he was in his early 20s who agreed with it (if you don't understand why I'm saying this, only old people (normally) watch the History Channel, and normally older people are considered wise and more educated). Well, how did they explain the dating? They said that a fire caused the chemical change, something that has never been heard before. Well, anyways, even more of a shock to me, they had several teams of scientists examine the Shroud. After these teams, a guy takes a piece of Scotch tape and sticks it on to the Shroud and pulls it off, and said he found pollen that could only be from Jerusalem. How did the teams of scientists miss this?
The History Channel ended with what they called the most current theory, that when Christ came back to life, radiation emitted from his body and this is what gave the Shroud its image.
Does this sound biased to anyone but me?
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 23:39:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Does this sound biased to anyone but me?
I don't know about biased, I just wanted to add...several years ago on TV....so long ago I don't remember what show....60 Mins., Dateline or possibly PBS, had a program all about it too. And as I remember it was pretty much shown that it was fake.
Sorry, I don't remember names, dates or places...I just get the basic idea and that's good enough for me. LOL, never think I'll have to quote things later.
Wish I could have seen the show you describe, I don't get that channel on my TV. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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| Edited by - Woody D on 04/09/2004 23:41:14 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 00:57:49 [Permalink]
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If I remember right, the stains and so forth on the Shroud were shown to be pigments used the 1300s, as well as the C-14 dating.
As for pollen from the Holy Land, if true, so what? I don't recall hearing what species the pollen was. Further, simply because a plant is found in a certain place, does not mean that it and/or it's close relitives are not found elsewhare.
I've also read that the cloth was of a certain weave and stiching usen in Jesus' time. Again, so what?
The extraordinary evidence to support this extraordinary claim in still lacking.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 06:23:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
The History Channel ended with what they called the most current theory, that when Christ came back to life, radiation emitted from his body and this is what gave the Shroud its image.
So God used radiation to bring Jesus back to life. Well now the entire religion makes sense. I think they should have also said there were quantum fluctuations when Jesus came back to life.
It just sounds so scientific and technical.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 07:14:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I recently saw the Shroud on the History Channel.
It basically built up the first 1/2 hour of the show with all this background, and then some scientists testing it etc. etc. Then it showed that the Shroud was dated though c-14 back to 1350, the first time it appeared in the history books. But then..... to my utter dismay, they kept going. They interviewed about 5 people who didn't agree with the dating (all 40+ years) and then 1 person who looked like he was in his early 20s who agreed with it (if you don't understand why I'm saying this, only old people (normally) watch the History Channel, and normally older people are considered wise and more educated). Well, how did they explain the dating? They said that a fire caused the chemical change, something that has never been heard before. Well, anyways, even more of a shock to me, they had several teams of scientists examine the Shroud. After these teams, a guy takes a piece of Scotch tape and sticks it on to the Shroud and pulls it off, and said he found pollen that could only be from Jerusalem. How did the teams of scientists miss this?
The History Channel ended with what they called the most current theory, that when Christ came back to life, radiation emitted from his body and this is what gave the Shroud its image.
Does this sound biased to anyone but me?
While it does sound biased, it isn't the first time for some of these claims. I heard the "fire added C-14" concerning a 1532 fire in a monestery (Chambery, France) where it was being housed as far back as the early 90's. The shroud shows fire damage and this is from the 1532 fire. The Shroud authenticity defenders (non-scientific) claim that the fire somehow caused more C-14 to be deposited in the fabric. The pollen can be explained from the whereabouts of the shroud not being known prior to 1357. However, the origin specifies that it was brought to France in 1357 by a Crusader. (Definately, someone who would have been near Jerusalem, thus possibly explaining the pollen)
C-14 dating places it's origin between 1260 and 1390.
The most current theory could mean that it was suggested the latest. There are competing theories, one being that the shroud is actually the burial shroud of Jacques de Molay, Grandmaster of the Knights Templar. His description is very similar to the one captured on the shroud. He was extensively tortured before his execution in 1307 which would cause his body to exude chemicals that could be transferred to a shroud as well as the shroud being washed with frankincense (and the chemical reactions between the bodily fluids and the frankincense).
There are a lot of different theories. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 10:35:58 [Permalink]
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Recently, as in sometime last year, Skeptical Inquirer, ran an article on the Shroud. They did point out that when the shroud made it's first appearance in the late 1400s, that the papacy at Avignon (spelling?) found the original artist that painted the thing. Told the church displaying it that they could call it an artistic representation but not an artifact.
Additionally, the shroud is painted in a monochromatic style that was common to that time period.
As for the pollen, that was brought forth by STURP in the early to mid 70s. One of STURPs investigators was unable to show the shroud existed any earlier than the 1400s dating. When he wanted to publish, the STURP team dropped him from their group, took his collection of information, which included several liftings of material from the shroud on tape and turned them over to another 'scientist'.
This guy, was the one who found an extremely high concentration of pollen on one lifting, that could have only come from the 'holy lands'. I seem to recall this information presented as proof from a show in the 70s. They also included some AF doohicky that showed that the image on the shroud was an image and not a painting. Though, haven't seen much made of that since. Wonder if the AF called them on their use of government equipment, and mis-representation of findings.
Anyway, if you have back issues of SI, I would suggest looking up this particular article. It's not on the net yet, otherwise I would have linked to it. There are two other articles in SI, one from the 70s and again in the 90s. Neither of which are reproduced on their site. You need to order the old copies of SI to read them.
So, the thing was fake in the 1400s, it's probably still a fake. The most telling thing is of course that the church found the artist who painted it. It was produced as a fraud, unfortunately, the fraud is being perpetuated by the same organization that declared it a fraud in the first place. Go figure. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
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