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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2004 : 20:03:41
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We over think things very often. WE have struggled through in arguments about, pre-historic man, and difforent theorys on how we came to be. But when it comes down to it the best argument against evolution is how nothing comes from nothing.
Where did whatever started the universe come from. This could not be used as an argument against God as well, because God is not restricted by time or space or physical space.
But where did the rocks floating in space come from? What is a rock? It is sand and leaves, and grass, and over hundreds or thousands of years it hardens into what we know as a rock. How can that happen in space? First of all theres no sand leaves or anything for that matter. So how do they come to be? No air to help harden. It just does not work.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 20:41:10 [Permalink]
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I don't know how the universe formed and neither does anyone else. As for that and abiogenesis, it's being worked on. Just because we don't know now does not mean that we'll never know.
But this has nothing to do with biological evolution. Evolution began immedatly after life was formed.
But one should keep in mind that even if the Big Bang hypothisis might not be true, it doesn't automaticly mean that God did it. The universe is vast beyond our puny imaginations, indeed infinant. In an infinant universe, there are infinant possibilities.
There is also some 15 billion years to take into consideration. A lot can happen in that vast amount of time.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 20:43:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Where did whatever started the universe come from. This could not be used as an argument against God as well, because God is not restricted by time or space or physical space.
You don't see anything wrong with this statement?
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 20:44:51 [Permalink]
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None of these questions have any impact on the theory of evolution. It does not address the origins of matter, nor the formation of planets. Thus, you have offered the very worst argument against evolution.
Plus, "basement" rock is not sedimentary, nor does it form from organic matter (which, by the way, sometimes makes coal). There are many types of rock, and your generalization is inadequate to describe the formation of many of them. After all, pumice is a kind of rock, and you can find it just a few minutes after lava has cooled. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 21:26:10 [Permalink]
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"Plus, "basement" rock is not sedimentary, nor does it form from organic matter (which, by the way, sometimes makes coal). There are many types of rock, and your generalization is inadequate to describe the formation of many of them. After all, pumice is a kind of rock, and you can find it just a few minutes after lava has cooled."
I just wanted to make this more clear for the non-geologist types. What creation88 first desribed is sedimentary rock, which is formed by the compacting and layering of sediments (plants, animals, other rocks). We are pretty sure that this planet formed from igneous rock, which is what happens when lava cools (that makes logical sense, but I don't know if there is anyway to show thats true). So basically all you need is superheated materials to the point where they are liquid (which is where the big bang comes in) to form the planet. After that, its just cooling off which forms the rocks (the core). |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 04:29:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
"No air to help harden."
I think your confusing rocks with glue.
Elmer's?
At least glue holds the 'Intro to the Gret-big World 'o Science' textbook bindings together. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 06:18:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
We over think things very often. WE have struggled through in arguments about, pre-historic man, and difforent theorys on how we came to be. But when it comes down to it the best argument against evolution is how nothing comes from nothing.
Where did whatever started the universe come from. This could not be used as an argument against God as well, because God is not restricted by time or space or physical space.
But where did the rocks floating in space come from? What is a rock? It is sand and leaves, and grass, and over hundreds or thousands of years it hardens into what we know as a rock. How can that happen in space? First of all theres no sand leaves or anything for that matter. So how do they come to be? No air to help harden. It just does not work.
Dude, you need to take some natural science courses. Sand comes from ROCKS (via erosion), and some rocks come from SAND (sedimentary). Leaves and grass are made mostly of carbon - which they get from the air - unless they're water plants, and then they get it from the water. Some rocks - like coal - can come from the carbon in living things. And other rocks, like diamonds, come from carbon that doesn't necessarily come from living things. But no rocks from living things form in outer space - as far as we know, that is .
And just because we don't know where, what, how the universe came to be says NOTHING about evolution, which is quite independent of cosmology. Creationists probably wouldn't be so anti-evolution if they would just take the time to learn something about what they criticize! There is no dignity in ignorant criticism and it's such a waste of intellect (and time)! 
What you are really outlining, dancing around, flushing from the trees, is the concept of Deism. Deism - in a nutshell - is the belief that the universe was created by some sort of god. But after that initial action, the first cause in our cause/effect universe, god went away and never interacted with it's creation again - at least not in any measurable way.
What I can't understand about the creation position is why they can't embrace the idea that god uses evolution as a tool of on-going creation. Tada! Everyone's happy. Science can go on objectively observing & describing the universe - puzzling out how it actually works - and creation can take it's head out of the sand and quit playing make-believe with old fairy tales. Progress can continue and the Faithful can keep on praying without anyone stepping on toes. See how easy it is to solve these kinds of problems?  |
-Chaloobi
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 07:01:55 [Permalink]
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Hear hear! Well said, chaloobi, especally the last paragraph.
But, you and I know that it ain't happenin'. A pity.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 07:02:34 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi wrote:quote:
What I can't understand about the creation position is why they can't embrace the idea that god uses evolution as a tool of on-going creation. Tada! Everyone's happy.
Except that if you read the Bible between the lines, it "says" that the Earth is only 6,008 years old. Evolution requires much longer than that, so it "proves" that the Bible is in error, which it can't be, because God wouldn't allow an error in the Bible. Thus, "evolutionists," "old-Earth creationists" and "deists" are all sinners (since the Bible "cannot" be wrong), and so are all going to Hell together. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 08:12:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Chaloobi wrote:quote:
What I can't understand about the creation position is why they can't embrace the idea that god uses evolution as a tool of on-going creation. Tada! Everyone's happy.
Except that if you read the Bible between the lines, it "says" that the Earth is only 6,008 years old. Evolution requires much longer than that, so it "proves" that the Bible is in error, which it can't be, because God wouldn't allow an error in the Bible. Thus, "evolutionists," "old-Earth creationists" and "deists" are all sinners (since the Bible "cannot" be wrong), and so are all going to Hell together.
But how long is a DAY in Genesis??? A day before day's began? There's room for billions of years! That's an out for hard core bible thumpers. . . . of course that's still head-in-the-sand thinking. . .
But the real solution is to stop taking that book so literally. To recognize god runs the universe using science (in order to maintain your faith in the hard cold light of fact) is also to recognize the bible - esp. the OT - is at best metaphorical and at worst mythological. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 11:18:19 [Permalink]
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| Chaloobi, I'm just reporting what the literalists believe. A 'day' means a 24-hour period, as God wouldn't do something so confusing as use the same word in two different ways. After all, nothing in the Bible is metaphorical (except, of course, the parables), it is just plain facts, written simply so that anyone can understand them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 11:25:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Where did whatever started the universe come from. This could not be used as an argument against God as well, because God is not restricted by time or space or physical space.
Arguments against the christian god? Sure, I also need arguments against the IPU, Valhalla and the Matrix. (I fear the day the Matrixologists demand equal time in schools.)
As for your statement, you assume that there is a god, and you assume that this god is not restricted by time or space. Of course not, since time and space did not exist before they existed. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 12:28:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Chaloobi, I'm just reporting what the literalists believe. A 'day' means a 24-hour period, as God wouldn't do something so confusing as use the same word in two different ways. After all, nothing in the Bible is metaphorical (except, of course, the parables), it is just plain facts, written simply so that anyone can understand them.
The literalists have made a decision to deprive themselves of the most basic dignity of common sense. The one thing god gave humanity to distinguish us from the beasts is a brain to think with and that's the first thing the literalists abandon. It's sinful. |
-Chaloobi
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 13:40:16 [Permalink]
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Without having read anything else than the opening post, my immediate reaction is: Doesn't Americal schools teach natural science?
Second question comes to mind: Why did Creation88 skip so many classes?
There wasn't anything else than hydrogen and helium before the first star lived and died (exploded). Stars produce heavier elements, like oxygen, nitrogen, silicon, and carbon. Mixed with the hydrogen allready present, we have much of what is needed for life.
Rock is so much more than "sand, leaves, and grass compressed over hundreds of years". In fact "sand, leaves, and grass compressed over a hundred years" does not make a rock, but a lump of dirt.
Lava from a volcano, that solidifies, could be called a rock.
(Edit: some spelling) |
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| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/13/2004 14:10:32 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 14:03:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
What I can't understand about the creation position is why they can't embrace the idea that god uses evolution as a tool of on-going creation. Tada! Everyone's happy. Science can go on objectively observing & describing the universe - puzzling out how it actually works - and creation can take it's head out of the sand and quit playing make-believe with old fairy tales. Progress can continue and the Faithful can keep on praying without anyone stepping on toes. See how easy it is to solve these kinds of problems?
Hear! Hear!
I have asked this question on Rapture Ready, only a few responded that is was a good Idea, the rest of them thought I was going to burn in Hell just for suggesting such blasphemy.
I hope that RR is not representative of the majority of Christians in the US. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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