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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2004 : 17:52:23
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I have read most everything on this site, and it has been fascinating. I have a few observations that maybe some of you can offer some perspective on.
It seems that most people have a real need to believe in something, regardless of evidence (or lack thereof). Whether it be religion, the existence of a god or gods, or that someone can read their dog's mind, they just gotta believe. My own experience has been that commenting on obvious logical problems with a particular belief (e.g. "If you believe that the biblical creation story is true, then how do you explain dinosaurs?") is usually met with denial, and a refusal to seriously consider alternatives.
Is it something that's wired into our brains that makes this so common? Are we as a species so insecure that many of us will belive damn near anything? I seem to be in a small minority when I challenge anything not supported by evidence.
As an example, a friend of my wife sent an e-mail (one of those christian student vs athiest professor fairy tales) and asked me to logically critique it. So I laid out the logical fallacies and outright nonsense in the story for her. Guess what? No response. Didn't want to really hear it (I suppose she believed I would be won over by the "logic" of the protagonist in this story, and was disappointed when I wasn't). A week later she forwarded to everyone she knew (including my wife) the "the government is going to start taxing every e-mail 5 cents" letter. Obviously, she just wants to believe!
So how do you deal with people who just insist on believing and don't seem to have any interest in thinking about the facts and coming to a reasoned conclusion?
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 18:09:58 [Permalink]
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Welcome, R. Wreck!
I think you're touching on what they call confirmation bias: the tendency to seek support or confirmation of what we already believe and also to diminish, discount, or dismiss conflicting information. We all do it from time to time, even skeptics. It's good critical thinking to guard against it, though, right?
How do you deal with people who insist on believing? I think all we can do is present information, over and over if necessary, in various ways. When they're ready to hear it and believe it, they'll hear it and believe it. |
| Edited by - Renae on 04/12/2004 18:15:54 |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 19:52:52 [Permalink]
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" quote:
If you believe that the biblical creation story is true, then how do you explain dinosaurs?")
Very easily. Dinosaurs and humans lived together. Which would expain some strange looking spear shaped holes in the sculls of a few dinosaurs.
quote:
So how do you deal with people who just insist on believing and don't seem to have any interest in thinking about the facts and coming to a reasoned conclusion?
I think your assuming that these people (aka, anyone who does not believe what you believe) have not put as much or more study and effort into what the believe. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 20:47:14 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
Which would expain some strange looking spear shaped holes in the sculls of a few dinosaurs.
And just where could such a skull be found? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 10:43:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
creation88:
Very easily. Dinosaurs and humans lived together. Which would explain some strange looking spear shaped holes in the sculls of a few dinosaurs.
Ok, that's it! Supply your sources. And while you doing that consider this; dinosaurs are always found in lower/older levels of the geologic column. Always! Never ever have human fossils been discovered at those levels. Neither have stone or wood tools. Got that? Never! The Flintstons is a cartoon... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 11:18:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
" quote:
If you believe that the biblical creation story is true, then how do you explain dinosaurs?")
Very easily. Dinosaurs and humans lived together. Which would expain some strange looking spear shaped holes in the sculls of a few dinosaurs.
Not at all. If the creation myth is true, then do you believe the earth is 6000 or ~4.5 billion years? If you believe it's 6000 years, where are the thousand year old dinosaur skeletons, and since humans invented caveart ~50000 years ago and writing ~6000 years ago, where are the written accounts of encounters with dinosaurs? And how did they paint the caveart before the earth existed? One would say such an encounter would leave quite an impression on the people. And if you believe the earth is ~4.5 billion years old, then where are the human skeletons that are more than 65 million years old? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 14:34:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
The Flintstons is a cartoon...
Not so!!! I saw it on TV. Fred Flintstone was a real person. And he had an uncanny resemblance to John Goodman. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 15:27:55 [Permalink]
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creation 88 wrote:
quote:
Dinosaurs and humans lived together
Umm, okay. If you consider a 65 million year gap to be "living together". But thanks for illustrating my original point better than I could ever have hoped.
and
quote:
I think your assuming that these people (aka, anyone who does not believe what you believe) have not put as much or more study and effort into what the believe.
I'm sure there's a lot of effort, but results are what count. One can spend a lot of effort to posit a theory, but if the result is not supported by evidence and sound logic, then the effort is wasted. I believe that critical thinking is a learned skill, and that's where the effort needs to go, not into defending a position that you'd like to believe is true regardless of evidence. |
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 08:39:16 [Permalink]
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| How, realistically could humans survived with dinosaurs? a tribe could easily have been wiped out by an attack by a raptor pack etc. |
"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now" |
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 11:31:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
I have read most everything on this site, and it has been fascinating. I have a few observations that maybe some of you can offer some perspective on.
...
So how do you deal with people who just insist on believing and don't seem to have any interest in thinking about the facts and coming to a reasoned conclusion?
Good question (and welcome to SFN!). I dont have the "blind faith" gene and I accept that I dont know everything.
Arguing with them is usualy useless. They feel like you're attacking them or their beliefs. And you always end up being the one who "doesn't understand" or know "The Truth". In my family for exemple, i'm the "cynical skeptic who doesn't beleive in anything" (not true; I beleive in stupidy and pig-headedness. There's plenty of evidence to prove both.)
I've found that the best way to deal with these folks is to ask questions, pure and simple. Here's a convenient exemple provided by our good friend, C88:
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quote:
Dinosaurs and humans lived together. Which would expain some strange looking spear shaped holes in the sculls of a few dinosaurs.
Dave.W already asked a nice one: "where are those bones?".
Here's a few more:
How come there is no cave paintings of dinosaurs anywhere?
How come there is no reference to dinosaurs in the bible?
How come there's no man-made tool made from dino bones?
Ever tried to punch a hole in a bone using a pointy rock? Try it. If you manage to do so, compare it to the "spear shaped holes" (provided you find said bone).
Then imagine you and 10 of your friends, armed with pointy rocks tied to sticks, attacking, say, a rhino. I'm willing to bet that you'll achive at least two things: a) you might manage to nudge it a little and b) you'll make the rhino really pissed of. Guess who 'll have holes in his skull?
Now imagine doing the same thing with a 20 tons dino. Ouch.
As far as I know, dinosaurs and refrigirators never existed at the same time; how do preserve 20 tons of dino meat?
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Hopefully, such questions may set a few minds in motion. I've given up on convincing beleivers long ago. Getting them to think about and question what they know is what I aspire to.
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Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
| Edited by - Maglev on 04/20/2004 11:35:41 |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 16:06:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by: R. Wreck
As an example, a friend of my wife sent an e-mail (one of those christian student vs athiest professor fairy tales) and asked me to logically critique it. So I laid out the logical fallacies and outright nonsense in the story for her. Guess what? No response. Didn't want to really hear it (I suppose she believed I would be won over by the "logic" of the protagonist in this story, and was disappointed when I wasn't). A week later she forwarded to everyone she knew (including my wife) the "the government is going to start taxing every e-mail 5 cents" letter. Obviously, she just wants to believe!
Excellent 2 posts, R.Wreck and welcome to SFN.
Their belief, I find, is always very tenuous, yet, with hulk like strength they hang on to it.
Why do I say tenuous? They almost always get angry, defensive, accusatory, illogical, irrational, evasive and then when challenged, they always abrogate their responsibility for whatever pernicious activities they and their particular bunch of cronies believe in!
Rant....Rant....Rant....Rant....Rant....Rant....
quote:
Originally posted by: C88
Very easily. Dinosaurs and humans lived together. Which would expain some strange looking spear shaped holes in the sculls of a few dinosaurs.
That, actually guys, is factual, although the 'strange looking spear shaped holes in the sculls' can be easily explained away! The skull showed evidence of an impaction, not dissimilar to the impact scar it could have obtained when exiting Dennis Matrie's Jeep!
C88, thats got to be one of your best, keep it up kid. I enjoy 'em!!!
quote:
Originally posted by: Maglev
Dave.W already asked a nice one: "where are those bones?".
Here's a few more:
How come there is no cave paintings of dinosaurs anywhere?
How come there is no reference to dinosaurs in the bible?
How come there's no man-made tool made from dino bones?
Ever tried to punch a hole in a bone using a pointy rock? Try it. If you manage to do so, compare it to the "spear shaped holes" (provided you find said bone).
Then imagine you and 10 of your friends, armed with pointy rocks tied to sticks, attacking, say, a rhino. I'm willing to bet that you'll achive at least two things: a) you might manage to nudge it a little and b) you'll make the rhino really pissed of. Guess who 'll have holes in his skull?
Now imagine doing the same thing with a 20 tons dino. Ouch.
As far as I know, dinosaurs and refrigirators never existed at the same time; how do preserve 20 tons of dino meat?
Maglev, I will enter the Randi challenge by predicting the answer you will receive to these.
My prediction (for the $1,000,000);
a) You will not get a single sane, logical, informative response to these questions.
b) You will however, get a response which will contain similar nonsense to the dino skulls above, which you will be asked to explain away... with no evidence, sources or referential links whatsoever!
Do ya think I could win! |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
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"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 10:16:06 [Permalink]
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Creation88 said:
quote:
Very easily. Dinosaurs and humans lived together. Which would expain some strange looking spear shaped holes in the sculls of a few dinosaurs.
Couple of quick questions:
1. What are sculls?
2. What is a 'strange looking spear shaped hole'? I have seen an arrow point in a bison skull and when you remove the point the hole does not look 'strange'. Do you mean that the holes looks strange because they are really spear shapped like this?
------------->
I have seen prehistoric cave paintings of dinosaurs. There were also aliens riding them. It is hard to dispute this kind of evidence. I don't remember where it was or when I saw this, so I will have to get back to you on the specifics.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 13:42:05 [Permalink]
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Sorry I did not respond quickly. At the chicago museum. The T-Rex there name "betsy" i think it was. If you ever go there dont look at the main dinosaur for the head, because it is a fake. Go up into the balcony and they have the real head in a case. There are three holes in one side of the scull. I'v seen it myself.
Ad as someone said a tribe could very easily be wiped out by a raptor attack. Just as a tribe could be taken out by a Tiger attack. (well not wuite but you get my point:)
And the testing of age is so un-reliable it's ridiculous. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 18:13:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
creation88:
And the testing of age is so un-reliable it's ridiculous.
See, this is the kind of self serving shit you get by using ICR books for your reference materials. If they admit that dating is accurate, they are screwed, so they make up all kinds of reasons why it isn't. And are those reasons published for peer review? Never!
Creation88, again, supply your sources. Here is a tip for you. Stop getting your information from comic books. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 19:21:08 [Permalink]
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creation88 wrote:quote:
At the chicago museum. The T-Rex there name "betsy" i think it was. If you ever go there dont look at the main dinosaur for the head, because it is a fake. Go up into the balcony and they have the real head in a case. There are three holes in one side of the scull. I'v seen it myself.
Do you mean Sue? Here's a story about it. Part of it reads:Several pathologies have been found on Sue's body, including a series of five holes in her lower jaw. These holes were originally thought to be bite marks, but Brochu now describes them as places of infection. If you mean some other T Rex with odd holes in its skull, please dig up a better citation. There is no doubt that someone suggesting spear holes in a T-Rex skull will be discussed on the web, somewhere.quote:
And the testing of age is so un-reliable it's ridiculous.
Which "testing of age?" If the answer is "all of them," then Bishop Ussher was unreliable, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 19:30:06 [Permalink]
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Um, just an aside, but as recently as a half a centry ago, the Pygmis of Africa hunted elephants with spears. And farther back, the Clovis peoples also hunted mammoths in just the same way, pointy rocks on a stick.
But C'88, don't take this as supporting evidence, beacuse....
The way it was done was; the best of the hunters would sneak up behind the animal and drive that rock & stick as far up it's wazoo as possible, then put the boogie-shoes on. After that, it was a matter of keeping track of the animal until it collapsed from blood loss or peridonitis.
The rear attack was prefered because the skin and tissues are thinner back there, and there is less chance of hitting bone going in. Attacks on the head were seldom, if ever, done.
However, I find it a difficult to picture something like Diplodicus being taken out in this way.
And as previously stated, there is exactly zero evidence that any mammal the size of an man existed at the time of the dinosaurs.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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