|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 04/22/2004 : 11:34:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
No, politics are for driving me batty.
You? Time will tell.
Dave Dave Dave . . . I think we are going to be friends. However, a thoughtful question has been posed and a thoughtful response requested. If you need time, that's fine. If you're not interested, that's less fine, but fine none-the-less  . However, flippant one-liners are neither useful nor interesting. |
-Chaloobi
|
| Edited by - chaloobi on 04/22/2004 11:35:27 |
 |
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 12:33:02 [Permalink]
|
If, from my prior posts in this thread, it is not clear to you that my flippant one-liner was the result of much thoughful consideration, perhaps we won't get along so well, after all.
But, going back to your second post in this thread, "politics" means definition two when applied to oneself or allies, and definition one when applied to one's political adversaries. The purpose of politics changes depending on one's viewpoint, also, as according to Webster's definitions of just two ideologies, "social goals" can include a great many and contradictory things.
In other words, attempting to nail down a purpose for politics is about as easy as herding cats. In that way, I see politics as sharing the same sort of intellectual realms as religion, alternative medicine, and conspiracy theories. In all these fields, appearance is much more important than substance, making skepticism very important. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 17:32:22 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
No, politics are for driving me batty.
You? Time will tell.
However, flippant one-liners are neither useful nor interesting.
Batty politics is a cute line!
Guess I won't be reading this folder anymore. People who are too serious drive me.... to get sillyier.       
Hope I remember which folder this is.
nlm
ps. Don't you get it? Politics is a JOKE. Vote for whom ever you want, they will always drive you batty. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 06:57:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
If, from my prior posts in this thread, it is not clear to you that my flippant one-liner was the result of much thoughful consideration, perhaps we won't get along so well, after all.
But, going back to your second post in this thread, "politics" means definition two when applied to oneself or allies, and definition one when applied to one's political adversaries. The purpose of politics changes depending on one's viewpoint, also, as according to Webster's definitions of just two ideologies, "social goals" can include a great many and contradictory things.
In other words, attempting to nail down a purpose for politics is about as easy as herding cats. In that way, I see politics as sharing the same sort of intellectual realms as religion, alternative medicine, and conspiracy theories. In all these fields, appearance is much more important than substance, making skepticism very important.
The intent of the question was to get subjective ideas of what politics is for, so you're ok to give your opinion rather than looking for the 'right answer.'
I think the general feeling in the US today is one of cynicism - that politics is for power-mongering liars, the worst humanity can produce, and that nothing 'good' can come from it's practice. However, in the past, this feeling was not so prevalent. People actually thought that through the exercise of politics, they could make society and the world a better place. I have a distinct feeling that our society has lost something important and that's why I started the thread and why I take it seriously.  |
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 08:04:35 [Permalink]
|
Chaloobi wrote:quote:
The intent of the question was to get subjective ideas of what politics is for, so you're ok to give your opinion rather than looking for the 'right answer.'
And my opinion, as should have been clear from my last post, is that there can be no right answer. I'm not looking for one. And Woody's opinion (from post #2 in this thread) doesn't seem to be substantially different from mine, but you seem to be singling mine out as unsatisfactory in some way.
As far as the cynicism goes, there is a difference between politicking and governing. Everything said during a campaign is, of course, politicking. If people were truly cynical about it, CNN would be reporting poll results like this:- George Bush - 3%
- John Kerry - 3%
- Don't Care - 94%
Margin of error: ±6%
After all, how well any particular person can govern is not predictable by how well they campaign. There might be cynicism, in terms of (for example) Democrats thinking "ah, those Republicans are full of it" (or vice versa), but that's not a cynicism about the process as a whole, it's just directed towards one's opponents, as I suggested in my last post. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 08:15:22 [Permalink]
|
| Quick question. How popular are the elections of, for example, governours compared to the election of the president? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 10:14:12 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And my opinion, as should have been clear from my last post, is that there can be no right answer. I'm not looking for one. And Woody's opinion (from post #2 in this thread) doesn't seem to be substantially different from mine, but you seem to be singling mine out as unsatisfactory in some way.
Why so exasperated? YOU are choosing to come to and post in this thread. I'm here because I created it and I'm interested in discussing the topic. If you don't think there's a right answer and you don't care, then why do you keep posting??? All you had to say from the beginning is:
I don't think there can be a right answer and I don't care anyway.
And that would be that.
And regarding cynicism: I think the impression that the government is a necessary evil and can do no nothing very well - so whoever enters politics has no chance of doing anything particularly good once in office - is a cynical one. And I thinkthis is the general impression among Americans at this time. No I don't have any poll numbers to back that up, but I discuss politics a lot and I read a lot on the subject and this is the impression I get from what I've been exposed to. You can try and redefine this 'mood' away from the word cynicism if you want, but it doesn't change the substance of how Americans regard politics today.
Here's what Webster has to say on the cynic. I especially like the example quote:
"contemptuously distrustful of human nature and motives <those cynical men who say that democracy cannot be honest and efficient -- F. D. Roosevelt>"
|
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 11:44:38 [Permalink]
|
Chaloobi wrote:quote:
Why so exasperated? YOU are choosing to come to and post in this thread. I'm here because I created it and I'm interested in discussing the topic. If you don't think there's a right answer and you don't care, then why do you keep posting??? All you had to say from the beginning is:
I don't think there can be a right answer and I don't care anyway.
And that would be that.
Where did I say that I didn't care? I care very much that so much time and money is spent on something that is so difficult to define or give purpose to. That's why I'm posting here. What's exasperating is that your OP implied that we could answer as we like, but you found fault with both my "flippant one-liner" and my explanation of it.
And please, enough with the dictionary definitions. I know exactly what 'cynical' means, I simply don't see it in the American populace. Perhaps people who discuss politics frequently (such as yourself) have indeed become cynical towards politicians, but I can't believe that people as a whole - who have divided themselves into Pro-Bush and Pro-Kerry camps so readily and evenly - look upon things as you do. If these men and/or their parties are so worthy of distrust, simply by being politicians, the polls should reflect it, but they don't appear to. More to the point, I think the sample from which you are drawing your tentative conclusions regarding the cynicism of America is highly biased by the self-selection of the participants. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 12:39:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Where did I say that I didn't care? I care very much that so much time and money is spent on something that is so difficult to define or give purpose to. That's why I'm posting here. What's exasperating is that your OP implied that we could answer as we like, but you found fault with both my "flippant one-liner" and my explanation of it.
And please, enough with the dictionary definitions. I know exactly what 'cynical' means, I simply don't see it in the American populace. Perhaps people who discuss politics frequently (such as yourself) have indeed become cynical towards politicians, but I can't believe that people as a whole - who have divided themselves into Pro-Bush and Pro-Kerry camps so readily and evenly - look upon things as you do. If these men and/or their parties are so worthy of distrust, simply by being politicians, the polls should reflect it, but they don't appear to. More to the point, I think the sample from which you are drawing your tentative conclusions regarding the cynicism of America is highly biased by the self-selection of the participants.
Regarding the "don't care" assumption, it comes from this quote:
"And my opinion, as should have been clear from my last post, is that there can be no right answer. I'm not looking for one."
Since the point of the thread is for you to post what you think politics is for, and you declared the question unanswerable and that you're not looking for an answer, I assumed that meant you didn't care about the question. Said differently - if you're intentionally not looking for the answer to a question because you think one does not exist, it follows that you don't care much about the question.
About opinion polls as an indication of cynicism. It's fallacious for you to declare that Americans must not be cynical about politics because it doesn't show up in opinion polls. Referring especially to this example:
quote:
If people were truly cynical about it, CNN would be reporting poll results like this:
George Bush - 3%
John Kerry - 3%
Don't Care - 94%
Margin of error: ±6%
First of all, if people are cynical about what can be accomplished through politics, it doesn't follow that they would answer 'don't care' in an opinion pole where the question is who they would vote for president. In fact, the really cynical ones likely vote Republican because they want to see the government doing as little as possible in the country - 'get big government off my back.' (Of course this is quite the opposite of what Republicans actually do, but that's not the point.)
Second, it's not likely the opinion poll even HAS 'don't care' as a choice. During the primary I participated in a telephone poll and they do give the 'don't have an opinion' option but they go to lengths to discourage using it. But even if you do take that answer, it doesn't necessarily indicate cynicism. If you want to measure cynicism with regard to politics, you'd have to ask questions like:
1. How well do you think the government performs at running social programs?
2. What proportion of politicians do you think are honest?
3. If you wanted to make the nation a better place, would you consider a career in politics?
4. Do you trust the government to do good things with your tax dollars?
Etc etc....
Third, as the definition says, cynical doesn't necessarily mean you don't care. It means you have very negative assumptions.
About using the dictionary: I will continue to use dictionary definitions because I think it's important to lay an objective basis from which to discuss. You've already demonstrated that you've redefined commonly used terms to suit your own ideas, so having an objective basis in this case is particularly important. Further, by claiming that being cynical about politics means you simply don't care about politics, you are misusing the word cynical. And since this misuse is the basis for your argument - that the opinion polls prove Americans are not cynical about politics - you are arguing fallaciously. A good dictionary definition can help clear that up.
|
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 13:05:35 [Permalink]
|
Chaloobi, you're apparently fond of using your own assumptions rather than ask a person what he means. Not looking for an answer doesn't mean a person doesn't care about the question - I think it's quite important that people realize that "institutions" such as politics do not, and can not, mean the same things to all people.
Secondly, as I've explained already, I did not redefine any terms to suit my own needs, I used different dictionary definitions of the same terms to illustrate their ambiguity and thus the need for clarity. A couple of dictionary definitions doesn't help that, when there are at least four more terms which need defining to truly clear things up.
Thirdly, I did not claim that cynicism means not caring, I simply tossed "Don't Care" in as the closest match in two words I could come up with in three seconds, in a single example. Was my further comment on the subject unclear? Or is your first impression about my first use of a term the only thing you'll pay attention to?
Finally, if someone believes that the Republicans will limit the government, then they're buying into the ideology, and thus not cynical about what the party claims. A truly cynical person knows that Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians (etc.) are all lying crooks, and either doesn't vote, or votes for the person he/she thinks will do the least damage. Voting along party lines does not demonstrate cynicism, as the parties are groups of lying sloths. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 13:20:45 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Finally, if someone believes that the Republicans will limit the government, then they're buying into the ideology, and thus not cynical about what the party claims. A truly cynical person knows that Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians (etc.) are all lying crooks, and either doesn't vote, or votes for the person he/she thinks will do the least damage. Voting along party lines does not demonstrate cynicism, as the parties are groups of lying sloths.
You forgot the question. It's not cynicism about the PARTY but about what can be accomplished via politics and, by extension, government. If you are cynical about the government, believing it can do little or no right, then you will vote the party that claims to want to limit the government's activities the most. |
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
