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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/22/2004 : 03:07:16
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Anti-abortion author talks about the reasons liberals love abortion. Atheists are wrong because Christianity still exists, and Christianity causes morality.
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=6998
There is no proof of a God or afterlife, so people must be allowed to maximize every moment here. Unwanted pregnancy interferes with that enjoyment.
As a just-released book, ''I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist'' by Geisler and Turek, contends, this atheistic or agnostic statement may actually require more faith than a traditional Christian statement of faith. This speaker, after all, has no backing for his pronouncements. Christianity has been challenged for two thousand years, and still stands."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 06:29:56 [Permalink]
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Ugh. Don't the right-wing Christian wackos ever give up?
I'm so tired of the line of thinking that posits that:
1. Liberals can't be Christians (or not proper or good Christians)
2. Liberalism has an inferior or no morality
First, many of my liberal friends and acquaintances are Christian. I think most Democrats ARE Christian as most AMERICANS are Christian.
Second, it was liberalism that gave us the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement--essentially, the MORAL idea that all people are created equal. Liberalism has also traditionally stressed that the poor, animals, and the environment should be taken care of--by *gasp* tax dollars if necessary.
I've seriously had it with the righteousness of the right-wing Christians and I'm not holding back any more. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 07:24:03 [Permalink]
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| Good for you. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 09:12:11 [Permalink]
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"I've seriously had it with the righteousness of the right-wing Christians and I'm not holding back any more."
Which is kinda ironic given their views on homosexuals (patronising people for being 'morally superior' one minute then slagging off gays the next} |
"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now" |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 10:48:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Anti-abortion author talks about the reasons liberals love abortion. Atheists are wrong because Christianity still exists, and Christianity causes morality.
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=6998
There is no proof of a God or afterlife, so people must be allowed to maximize every moment here. Unwanted pregnancy interferes with that enjoyment.
As a just-released book, ''I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist'' by Geisler and Turek, contends, this atheistic or agnostic statement may actually require more faith than a traditional Christian statement of faith. This speaker, after all, has no backing for his pronouncements. Christianity has been challenged for two thousand years, and still stands."
I'm a liberal and I don't love abortion. I wouldn't advocate it to anyone, nor would I choose it for my own family except in extreme cases like rape or incest. However, I am pro-choice. Just because I choose to approach the question of abortion in this way doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone else.
One of the most basic tennets of Christian theology is that God wishes to preserve our ability to choose between right and wrong. This is why God requires us to have Faith rather than give us continuous and incontrovertable evidence of His existance. If He did, we would be incapable of true choices between right and wrong. If God Himself will not force women not to have abortions, then how dare any of His human worshippers usurp such authority from Him? Such is the height of pride and arrogance and I am confident all anti-abortion activists will burn for eternities on end in Hell under the wrath of God whose explicit designs they act against. Fools. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 04/22/2004 10:50:49 |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 13:34:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
1. Liberals can't be Christians (or not proper or good Christians)
2. Liberalism has an inferior or no morality
First, many of my liberal friends and acquaintances are Christian. I think most Democrats ARE Christian as most AMERICANS are Christian.
Correction....Most americans SAY they are Christians, but actions speak louder than words. And it is very hard for a strong liberal to be a Christian at all. Almost impossibe, considering everything they believe go's against the Bible. Abortion (aka murder), the percent of people having sex before marriage is up in liberals. So is divorce. Toleration of Homosexuality. And many others.
So I'd say you hit the nail on the head Renae. Morality is down among liberals. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 14:40:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Correction....Most americans SAY they are Christians, but actions speak louder than words. And it is very hard for a strong liberal to be a Christian at all. Almost impossibe, considering everything they believe go's against the Bible. Abortion (aka murder), the percent of people having sex before marriage is up in liberals. So is divorce. Toleration of Homosexuality. And many others.
So I'd say you hit the nail on the head Renae. Morality is down among liberals.
Yes, it's not like massmurder is something the god of the Bible ever did or ordered! And speaking of abortions I'm not so sure that god is against it. Hosea 13:16, Numbers 5:27-28, to me they seem to describe something like that. There seems to be a few places with murder and massmurder, too. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
| Edited by - Maverick on 04/23/2004 14:41:33 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 17:16:03 [Permalink]
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C88, you are completely wrong. Not just misguided, but wrong.
Why don't you actually think for a moment about what Jesus stood for. NOT what the friggin' Bible supposedly says or how you interpret the Bible, but WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY STOOD FOR.
Just so you know, the correct answer is: love. Love of ALL PEOPLE, even *gasp* gays, liberals, and abortion doctors. EVEN of poor people, who Jesus exhorted you to take care of--the same poor people Republicans shit on. EVEN minorities, who are equal in His eyes but whom Republicans shit on. EVEN people of other faiths, whom intolerant turdlings have shit on, exterminated, hanged, and tortured.
My mother is a better Christian than anybody I know and she's slightly to the left of Jerry Brown politically. She does more volunteer service in a week than most people do in a year. She loves gay people, animals, poor people, sick people...you have no friggin' idea the caliber of her morality.
Knock off the liberal bashing because I'm not gonna tolerate it any longer.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 17:43:08 [Permalink]
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| Toleration of Christianity is immoral. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 20:52:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
C88, you are completely wrong. Not just misguided, but wrong.
Why don't you actually think for a moment about what Jesus stood for. NOT what the friggin' Bible supposedly says or how you interpret the Bible, but WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY STOOD FOR.
Just so you know, the correct answer is: love. Love of ALL PEOPLE, even *gasp* gays, liberals, and abortion doctors. EVEN of poor people, who Jesus exhorted you to take care of--the same poor people Republicans shit on. EVEN minorities, who are equal in His eyes but whom Republicans shit on. EVEN people of other faiths, whom intolerant turdlings have shit on, exterminated, hanged, and tortured.
My mother is a better Christian than anybody I know and she's slightly to the left of Jerry Brown politically. She does more volunteer service in a week than most people do in a year. She loves gay people, animals, poor people, sick people...you have no friggin' idea the caliber of her morality.
Knock off the liberal bashing because I'm not gonna tolerate it any longer.
Now your just wrong. That's not what Jesus stood for at all, the main message of his life was "Love the Lord our God with all you heart". People are very secondary. Liberals who I can't say I tolerate either twist it into things they can agree with. Like "love the poor". Very little is said in the Bible about loving the poor. There is some but not much. Christianity is faith based not works based. Though I believe God rewards you for works you have done, they really have nothing to do with Christianity.
I'm sure your mother is a wonderful woman. She sounds like a lovely person to be around, but by the sounds of it she is NOT a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. She is a very humanly moral person, and that's good for her. But most likel not a Godly person.
And what in the name of ANYTHING that's holy are you or anyone else on here doing telling me to respect your group. I have been called names on here that I personally would never repeat. I'v been called a lier, ignorant, stupid, and anything else you can think of. So why don't you shut your hypocritical trap, and take your own advice once in a while. I'm not saying I have not been dis-respectful to liberals, and I'm not sorry for it. But I have it ALOT harder in everyday life than you do. We are made fun of in the media ALL the time. When was the last time you saw a truly conservitive film made in hollywood, that was not "The Passion"? You have not a clue what "conservative bashing" to use you phrase feels like. So just shut up once in a while, and look at yourself as well.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 21:37:25 [Permalink]
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creation88 wrote:quote:
Now your just wrong. That's not what Jesus stood for at all, the main message of his life was "Love the Lord our God with all you heart". People are very secondary.
No, people were exactly secondary. You've quoted Jesus' first commandment. His second was to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Those were the two most important commandments. All the rest of the law, including nine of the old Ten, and the idea that homosexuality is an abomination, were "very secondary" to those two, according to Scripture.quote:
I'm sure your mother is a wonderful woman. She sounds like a lovely person to be around, but by the sounds of it she is NOT a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. She is a very humanly moral person, and that's good for her. But most likel not a Godly person.
Ah, the old "no true Scotsman" fallacy. So long as people don't share your views 100%, they are not "true" Christians, and since every other person on the planet is not you, you're the only true Christian. A brilliant escape from reality.quote:
I'm not saying I have not been dis-respectful to liberals, and I'm not sorry for it.
Ah, that pesky second commandment from Jesus is going to bite you when you die.quote:
But I have it ALOT harder in everyday life than you do. We are made fun of in the media ALL the time.
Perhaps you shouldn't take things so personally. You do know, don't you, that "the media" don't have a clue as to who you are, right? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2004 : 02:02:07 [Permalink]
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Although I'm not a christian, my father was one. He stopped calling himself a christian because he considers conservative christians as not very 'Godly'. He has a deeply rooted faith in Jesus and love for Jesus, and as of late truly seems to love everyone as much as (if not more than) himself. This is part of what he taught me about his faith.
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
Now your just wrong. That's not what Jesus stood for at all, the main message of his life was "Love the Lord our God with all you heart". People are very secondary.
Luke 10:
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
After this follows the parable of the Good Samaritan, to explain who your neighbour.
People aren't very secondary. Loving others, even if they are 'the enemy' ('Luke6 vs27:But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you') is almost as important as loving God the way I was taught read the gospels .
quote:
Liberals who I can't say I tolerate either twist it into things they can agree with. Like "love the poor". Very little is said in the Bible about loving the poor. There is some but not much. Christianity is faith based not works based. Though I believe God rewards you for works you have done, they really have nothing to do with Christianity.
How about Luke14:
12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Luke 18 is also a very good one in this respect.
Maybe you don't have to love the poor, but it seems clear to me that you at least have to take care for them (for them rather than for someone who can reward you during your lifetime).
quote:
I'm sure your mother is a wonderful woman. She sounds like a lovely person to be around, but by the sounds of it she is NOT a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. She is a very humanly moral person, and that's good for her. But most likel not a Godly person.
I don't think that you are the one to decide that (John chapter 8).
quote:
And what in the name of ANYTHING that's holy are you or anyone else on here doing telling me to respect your group. I have been called names on here that I personally would never repeat. I'v been called a lier, ignorant, stupid, and anything else you can think of. So why don't you shut your hypocritical trap, and take your own advice once in a while. I'm not saying I have not been dis-respectful to liberals, and I'm not sorry for it. But I have it ALOT harder in everyday life than you do. We are made fun of in the media ALL the time. When was the last time you saw a truly conservitive film made in hollywood, that was not "The Passion"? You have not a clue what "conservative bashing" to use you phrase feels like. So just shut up once in a while, and look at yourself as well.
First, don't go to the movies, most of'em suck anyway.
I don't know about the bashing conservatives. I get the idea that the conservatives are just as good at bashing the liberals, and christians just as good at bashing atheists/agnostics/everyone who doesn't agree with them.
I don't think it will do any good with starting to argue about who begun calling names. Although I sometimes thought posts were a little rough on you, I am also of the opinion that in a number of cases you failed to provide good reasoning in your posts, and that way deserved the lashing outs that you got. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2004 : 03:11:15 [Permalink]
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"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
Is it possible to agree on a definition? Ok, somebody define, "Christian." When that's settled, if ever, we'll need a working description of what qualifies as "Christianity."
As someone who believes none of it, I will refrain from comment.
Edited to remove sarcastic and uncalled for remark.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/24/2004 03:14:32 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2004 : 03:47:35 [Permalink]
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Christian, Charlie. 1916-1942.
American jazz guitarist and blues singer. One of the first to amplify the guitar, he influenced its emergence as a solo instrument in jazz. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2004 : 04:42:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
..., somebody define, "Christian." When that's settled, if ever, we'll need a working description of what qualifies as "Christianity."
cart | horse |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2004 : 05:25:51 [Permalink]
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C88, you're on your way to being one of those Christians whose faith I don't respect--unlike my mother, whose faith I DO respect, although I don't share it.
Leonard Pitts, one of my heroes, wrote a column about how far too many Christians are good at the feel-good, righteous, and judgmental elements of Christianity but fall short of the things that Christianity REQUIRES of THEM. In other words, he felt they were lazy Christians.
Christianity IS about good works, C88. It's about character development, too--NOT minding your neighbor's character, but about tending your own with discipline, self-awareness, sacrifice, service to others, etc.
Most fundies don't understand this last part, and conservatives certainly don't. Yet they demand respect for their views or else they cry persecution. Barf.
PS: Leonard Pitts' columns don't appear to be archived at The Miami Herald website. I encourage everybody to read him regularly, though. He's brilliant (just won the Pulitzer.) |
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