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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2004 : 06:33:08 [Permalink]
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I respect people with good intentions that sometimes do good things. Faith, meaning a belief in something which doesn't exist, adds nothing to anyone.
Some of the people I admire do the things they do because they want to make the world a better place. Some of those people choose the religions they do because they want to make the world a better place. Religion really adds nothing. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2004 : 06:44:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Christianity IS about good works, C88.
There is a seemingly endless variety of Christianities which have littered the historical landscale with good works and attrocities alike.
One need only scan its pervasive and institutionalized antisemitism to show the absurdity of painting Christianity with a liberal, revisionist, brush. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
| Edited by - ConsequentAtheist on 04/24/2004 06:50:49 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2004 : 13:24:01 [Permalink]
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C88 wrote:
quote:
Christianity is faith based not works based. Though I believe God rewards you for works you have done, they really have nothing to do with Christianity.
I'm sure your mother is a wonderful woman. She sounds like a lovely person to be around, but by the sounds of it she is NOT a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. She is a very humanly moral person, and that's good for her. But most likel not a Godly person.
It is exactly this kind of attitude that turns people off to christianity and some christians. For my money, I'll take one "very humanly moral" person over ten believers. What is the point of being "Godly"? Is it to make the world you live in now the best you can make it for yourself and those around you (which would certainly be a priority for any "God" I'd consider worth believing in)? Or is it to believe your way to eternal bliss, and let the rest of the world look out for themselves? (And by the way, what's with this obsession with a highly speculative afterlife anyway?) |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2004 : 17:40:04 [Permalink]
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While that quote from the "good Sameritan" parable, says nearly the same thing, that's not the passage I was thinking of.
Matthew 22: 37-38, "Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord thy God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment, and the SECOND is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.--NKJV
So just as I said, loving him is first. People come second.
quote:
I'll take one "very humanly moral" person over ten believers. What is the point of being "Godly"? Is it to make the world you live in now the best you can make it for yourself and those around you (which would certainly be a priority for any "God" I'd consider worth believing in)?
Who cares what your standards for the God you believe in are? No it is not to make the world the best it can be. I of course care about the world, but the world is not my home. I'm looking ahead, to my real home. So the point of being Godly is it's the way to go home. And it honors God, which is the MOST important thing on my to do list.
quote:
Religion really adds nothing.
Your right religion adds nothing. Religion is everything, it's not something that can be added. Even if you don't know it you DO have a religion. Even if your religion is that you have no religion.
I did'nt have a life then I added God. God, was and is life, and my faith in him is growing stronger.
quote:
C88, you're on your way to being one of those Christians whose faith I don't respect--unlike my mother, whose faith I DO respect, although I don't share it.
This assumes you ever respected me or conservitive Christians, which you certainly hav'nt shown since I have been here.
quote:
Christianity IS about good works, C88. It's about character development, too--NOT minding your neighbor's character, but about tending your own with discipline, self-awareness, sacrifice, service to others, etc.
Christianity is NOT about works Renae. Works are a good thing, that come with your faith. but have nothing to do with the actua faith itself. Read through Hebrews, all it talks about is faith. Nowhere in the Bible does it talk about doing enough good things to get to Heaven.
quote:
Yet they demand respect for their views or else they cry persecution. Barf.
I have known you to be hypocritical before, but this beats all of them. Your seriously saying this to me after your whole little rampage about how we don't respect you? "I can't take the liberal bashing anymore". Talk about crying persecution. "barf".
quote:
quote:
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I'm not saying I have not been dis-respectful to liberals, and I'm not sorry for it.
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Ah, that pesky second commandment from Jesus is going to bite you when you die.
Not at all Dave. I lopve all of you as fellow human beings. But I respect almost none of you, with a peticuler dis-respect for a few. Nowhere does it say that I have to or even should respect idea's that I believe are just plain wrong.
quote:
Perhaps you shouldn't take things so personally. You do know, don't you, that "the media" don't have a clue as to who you are, right?
Dave, you very rarely make a bad point, but this is one. Do anti-semitic people know every single Jew that they hate? No. I don't take things personally. I litterally feel bad for the person who said them, because I know what position they must be in to say that. And how God punishes them.
quote:
Ah, the old "no true Scotsman" fallacy. So long as people don't share your views 100%, they are not "true" Christians, and since every other person on the planet is not you, you're the only true Christian. A brilliant escape from reality.
Don't be ridiculous. I have many friends whom a dis-agree with on many many ideas of Christianity. Yet I know they are still Christians. What I am talking about here is someone who dis-agrees with almost everything the Bible stands for. If you are a Christian you don't fornicate without great guilt. You don't murder children without realizeing how obvious it is that they are human. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
| Edited by - byhisgrace88 on 04/25/2004 17:41:05 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2004 : 19:03:07 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
So the point of being Godly is it's the way to go home.
No, loving God is, not "being Godly." Besides which, God allegedly loves all people, so if you want to be Godly, you must also love all people.
Actually, many conservative Christians claim that people who say that doing good works (attempting to live as Jesus did) are all going to Hell, anyway, since they don't "accept Jesus" as anything but a role model. Being Godly, for them, is a sure way to stay out of Heaven.quote:
And it honors God, which is the MOST important thing on my to do list.
NO! Loving God is the most important thing. Not "honoring" Him. The two words are not synonyms. Heck, the Ten Commandments don't ask you to love your parents, only to honor them. This is understandable, as many people hate their parents, but show them respect anyway. Sort of the opposite of your claim to be able to love people without respecting them. But honoring God won't get you any closer to Heaven, only loving Him will do so.quote:
Dave, you very rarely make a bad point, but this is one. Do anti-semitic people know every single Jew that they hate?
I'd be willing to bet that many anti-semitic people have never even met a Jew, but hate them all nevertheless. And given that half of the U.S. is Protestant, I'd also bet that there are a sizable number of conservative Christians among "the media." And just for grins, I'd like you to describe just a single episode of conservative-Christian "bashing" you've seen in "the media." This should be easy for you, since "We are made fun of in the media ALL the time."quote:
No. I don't take things personally.
Yes, you do, or you wouldn't have said that you "have it ALOT harder in everyday life than" Renae does. You were claiming that "the media" makes your life more difficult. If that's not personal, I don't know what is.quote:
Don't be ridiculous. I have many friends whom a dis-agree with on many many ideas of Christianity. Yet I know they are still Christians.
How? And how can you know that Renae's mother is not? By what objective standard do you differentiate Christian from non-Christian, and which side of the line does Renae's mother sit on?
After all, all that you know about her is that she's very kind to all other people, and politically "left of Jerry Brown." You've got no clue, from Renae's posts, as to how well or badly her mother follows Jesus' number-one commandment, yet you seem sure that she's "NOT a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word." In fact, since it is Renae's mother we've been discussing, it seems as if you think she "is someone who dis-agrees with almost everything the Bible stands for." I don't know how you get there from what's been written here.
Because we have not been talking about fornicators and child murderers. Plus, I was under the impression that it was Catholics who were big on the guilt thing. After all, if you've accepted Jesus, your sins simply don't count, so why should a conservative Christian feel guilty at all about screwing or slaughtering? In fact, if it is possible to love someone without respecting them, then it seems to me that none of the following acts break either of Jesus' two big commandments, so long as you love your "victim(s)":- Murder
- Theft
- Lying
- Sex outside of marriage
- Abortion
- Homosexuality
- Disrespecting one's parents
- Using God's name as a curse
The list, of course, goes on and on in Deuteronomy and other books. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 06:24:16 [Permalink]
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C88, let me tell you a story about my mom, whom you don't think is a true Christian.
I collapsed in the elevator of my workplace and was taken to the ER this last November. On the way, we called my mom on my celphone. She was having her own health problems then, and I didn't want to worry her, but I knew she'd want to know.
At the ER, my blood pressure had dropped so low, they couldn't get an IV in. So they were basically digging at the top of my hand with a needle (which hurts, let me tell you.) I had lost so much fluid that I couldn't get warm; though there were four blankets on top of me, I was shivering. I was frightened and I started to cry. I'm 34 years old, but I wanted my mom.
There was a knock at the door. I turned to the nurse and said, "That'll be my mom." The nurse gave me that "You don't have enough oxygen getting to your brain" look and went to open the door. It was my mom.
You see, C88, it doesn't matter how my mother votes, or whether or not she goes to church on Sundays, or whether she had sex before she married my dad. Those things are irrelevant. She's a woman who gives great love to others, even when it costs her something, even when it's not convenient, even when it's not easy.
That's a life lesson that you haven't learned yet. It's a lesson that transcends the dogma of religion--any religion.
I hope you learn that lesson. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 16:06:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88:
Matthew 22: 37-38, "Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord thy God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment, and the SECOND is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.--NKJV
So just as I said, loving him is first. People come second.
How can you love God without loving his creation? The way you're going at it now, it seems to me that you believe that as long as you love God you don't have to bother with loving your neighbor. They are both commandments, you have to follow both of them.
quote:
I did'nt have a life then I added God. God, was and is life, and my faith in him is growing stronger.
Is your love for him also growing stronger? There is a very big difference between believing in God and loving God.
My father's faith in God and love for him is growing ever stronger. Through his love for God, he feels love for the rest of the world and because of that he tries to make the world a better place (which at this point involves talking to a lot of drug addicts/ alcohol addicts/ prostitutes to get them out of their destructive behaviour). The stronger his faith is, the more he does for others and the more disappointed he is about many (conservative) christians for not bothering to much with loving others. Also, he is very concerned about the judgemental attitude of many christians (and you have shown the same attitude towards Renae's mother). It is not up to you to decide who is the better christian, Creation88. Only God can make that judgement.
quote:
Christianity is NOT about works Renae. Works are a good thing, that come with your faith. but have nothing to do with the actua faith itself. Read through Hebrews, all it talks about is faith. Nowhere in the Bible does it talk about doing enough good things to get to Heaven.
How can you separate faith from trying to do good things? It would seem to me that if you believe in Jesus, you believe in all his teachings. For me, when reading the bible, this is that you should always try to do good, especially to the ones who cannot or will not repay you (ie. the 'poor' and 'the enemy'). If you love God and belief in Jesus with all your heart, you will go to heaven even if you fail at that, but loving God would also mean that you actively try to achieve this (living like Jesus that and following his teachings, that includes BOTH loving God and loving everyone else). Else, in my mind, faith becomes meaningless. Christianity IS all about works, because loving God expresses itself through the works you do. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 20:33:56 [Permalink]
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Okay, Christianity SHOULD BE all about works, because loving God expresses itself through the works you do.
Reality caught up on me again. Hate it when that happens. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 22:33:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
C88, let me tell you a story about my mom, whom you don't think is a true Christian.
I collapsed in the elevator of my workplace and was taken to the ER this last November. On the way, we called my mom on my celphone. She was having her own health problems then, and I didn't want to worry her, but I knew she'd want to know.
At the ER, my blood pressure had dropped so low, they couldn't get an IV in. So they were basically digging at the top of my hand with a needle (which hurts, let me tell you.) I had lost so much fluid that I couldn't get warm; though there were four blankets on top of me, I was shivering. I was frightened and I started to cry. I'm 34 years old, but I wanted my mom.
There was a knock at the door. I turned to the nurse and said, "That'll be my mom." The nurse gave me that "You don't have enough oxygen getting to your brain" look and went to open the door. It was my mom.
You see, C88, it doesn't matter how my mother votes, or whether or not she goes to church on Sundays, or whether she had sex before she married my dad. Those things are irrelevant. She's a woman who gives great love to others, even when it costs her something, even when it's not convenient, even when it's not easy.
That's a life lesson that you haven't learned yet. It's a lesson that transcends the dogma of religion--any religion.
I hope you learn that lesson.
This is great story. I honestly was VERY moved by it. But it has absolutly zero impact to what were speaking on. Just as I said before, I'm sure your mother is a wonderful person. She sounds like a delight to be around. But it has no effect on weather she is a Christian or not.
People seem to associate "Christian", with just trying to live the right way ad being nice to people and helping out. Christianity is about GOD!
People seem to think when I say faith not works, that I think works are a bad thing, and this is not the case at all. All I'm saying is that faith and a love for God are what save. But works are incredibly important, and if you don't have a desire to do them then you should really take a good look at what your faith is, and if it's there at all. But you ca certainly have the gift of genorosity
without being a christian. You obviously trying to get me to say something nasty about your mother, at which point you would go off on me. So please stop trying to put me in awkward positions by telling me stories of your mother or anyone else. I could come up with stories of devout athiest's who did good works. But were not Christians, and would have been offended if you had called them one.
quote:
Just imagine if everyone who was Christian in America (somewhere around 70% now) instead of going to church did 1 hour of volunteer work, think of how much would be accomplished.
I say again, 70% CALL themselves Christians.
I dunno, why does'nt everybody (somewhere around 100% now) take there favorite, most refreshing and enjoyable time out of each week, and go clean a park or somehing? Imagine how much could get done.
Partly because community service is one of many chances to do a good work. If we went and cleaned a park, why is that any better then sweetly saying hi and giving a hug to the old lady who sits across from you in church?
quote:
Is your love for him also growing stronger? There is a very big difference between believing in God and loving God.
I'm not a big fan of the word "Faith" when it's being used in relation to Christianity. Because the way people use the word, is speaking to much more than just believing in something you can't see. If someone like me says "my faith in him is getting stronger", it is assuming that your love for him is as well.
So really though it DOES matter what you put down on a ballot, or what yo believe. And it should matter more to you if you believe you can be saved by works. Because if you can be live by works, then you can certainly die by works.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 05:16:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
[brThat's not what Jesus stood for at all, the main message of his life was "Love the Lord our God with all you heart". People are very secondary.
So I could imagine that I hear gods voice in my head telling me to kill my children, and as long as I "Love the Lord our God with all my heart" I would be morally accepted. Since people are secondary that is. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 05:37:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
[So I could imagine that I hear gods voice in my head telling me to kill my children, and as long as I "Love the Lord our God with all my heart" I would be morally accepted. Since people are secondary that is.
Of course! Gen 22:2
http://www.thebricktestament.com//genesis/god_tests_abraham/gn22_01a.html
It would be immoral not to kill them.
Would you trust a fundie to babysit your kids? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 10:16:04 [Permalink]
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creation88 wrote:quote:
You obviously trying to get me to say something nasty about your mother, at which point you would go off on me.
But you've already judged Renae's mother to probably not be a Christian, despite having zero information about how faithful she is. She's got commandment #2 locked up, and we've got no idea how well she does on #1, but you would judge her to not be a Christian based upon lesser, even more inconsequential things:quote:
Almost impossibe, considering everything they [liberals] believe go's against the Bible. Abortion (aka murder), the percent of people having sex before marriage is up in liberals. So is divorce. Toleration of Homosexuality. And many others.
Indeed, based upon her political stance, and nothing else, you've said that she's not a Christian based upon at least one "sin" which didn't even rate highly enough to make the Ten Commandments, much less Jesus' two most important Commandments.
I'd also be interested in seeing the statistics behind your claim regarding divorce, by the way. At least a little while ago, the divorce rate amongst Protestant ministers was identical to that of the general population.quote:
I dunno, why does'nt everybody (somewhere around 100% now) take there favorite, most refreshing and enjoyable time out of each week, and go clean a park or somehing? Imagine how much could get done.
Frankly, I consider the time I spend on this web site to be community service. Only so many people can clean a park, after all.quote:
Christianity is about GOD!
Actually, Judaism is about God - Christianity is about Christ. 
Okay, so if Christianity is about God, why the heck did Jesus go around telling people to do good works as a way to get blessed? We hear all sorts of stuff, including "make the most of your talents," "hand over all your money to the church" and "be kind to the help," but you're telling us that in the end, none of those sorts of methods which Jesus taught would get a person into the Kingdom of Heaven really matter, 'cause Christianity is about GOD, right? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 05:35:35 [Permalink]
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C88, my mom is neither a perfect Christian nor a perfect person, and she'd be the first to admit that. I don't think her faith is a central part of her life, and I know she still struggles with a mistrust and contempt for organized religion. She's had a hard time finding a church that isn't filled with petty, backstabbing twits. (sorry, but it's true.)
Her faith, though, hasn't wavered. She believes God loves her and he commands her to love others, especially her family. That was the point of the story, which is 100% true.
MY point was that my mother's liberalism is partly a way for her to express her Christian beliefs. You may disagree with how her Christianity is expressed, and that's your right. But to question her Christianity is another thing--unfair and judgmental, right? I thought God was supposed to make that decision, not us mere mortals.
For those of us on the progressive, liberal, or Democratic side, our beliefs are VERY moral and deeply held. I believe we have a moral obligation to the environment, animals, children, and the poor. That's what I call public morality--the choices we make in these arenas affect other people, right? If a corporation dumps pollution in a stream, animals can die, people can get sick--isn't that immoral?
Yet the conservative Christians are concerned with PRIVATE morality: actions which harm no one (homosexual behavior, pornography, religious belief, etc.).
That's one of the major ways I part company with conservatives and religious folks alike. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 08:19:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
C88, my mom is neither a perfect Christian nor a perfect person, and she'd be the first to admit that. I don't think her faith is a central part of her life, and I know she still struggles with a mistrust and contempt for organized religion. She's had a hard time finding a church that isn't filled with petty, backstabbing twits. (sorry, but it's true.)
Her faith, though, hasn't wavered. She believes God loves her and he commands her to love others, especially her family. That was the point of the story, which is 100% true.
Same here with my father. He is still looking for a church were he can be at home, and has a deeply held belief in God and love for God. He also thinks the majority of the christians is wrong, spending a lot of time showing just how religious they are, in stead of following Jesus' example.
quote:
MY point was that my mother's liberalism is partly a way for her to express her Christian beliefs. You may disagree with how her Christianity is expressed, and that's your right. But to question her Christianity is another thing--unfair and judgmental, right? I thought God was supposed to make that decision, not us mere mortals.
For those of us on the progressive, liberal, or Democratic side, our beliefs are VERY moral and deeply held. I believe we have a moral obligation to the environment, animals, children, and the poor. That's what I call public morality--the choices we make in these arenas affect other people, right? If a corporation dumps pollution in a stream, animals can die, people can get sick--isn't that immoral?
Yet the conservative Christians are concerned with PRIVATE morality: actions which harm no one (homosexual behavior, pornography, religious belief, etc.).
That's one of the major ways I part company with conservatives and religious folks alike.
Couldn't agree with you more Renae. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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