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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2001 : 04:12:34
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I am often amused that people equate intelligent civilizations by their ability to communicate with our scientific installations.
We had intelligent civilizations for thousands of years. Just because nobody had discovered electromagnetic radiation here on earth does not mean that intelligent civilizations were lacking, too. The same may be true for intelligent civilizations elsewhere in the universe (multiverse?) and inability to communicate with each other is not indicative of a lack of intelligent life elsewhere. We have had intelligent life for millennia on Earth and we should give credit to the accomplishments which have already been made.
This does not mean that we are to expect to find *beings* similar to the *beings* on Earth. But intelligent beings ought to exist somewhere else. It is a huge universe. After all, we exist and some of us (perhaps a paltry few) are brilliant enough to make the word *intelligent* fit for us humans. The rest of us hang onto their coattails.
Also, civilizations on other planets in other star systems may have given up attempting to contact anybody, let alone us, who are Johnny-come-lately's here. After all, it is only recently that we have developed the required technology for such communication.
ljbrs
Perfection Is a State of Growth...
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2001 : 04:26:37 [Permalink]
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I have forgotten to add the Message Icons to my first message. Being unable to change or delete the above message, I will add the needed Message Icons here and let the readers mentally insert them where they might think the Message Icons fit:
Here goes:
        
ljbrs
Perfection Is a State of Growth... |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2001 : 08:34:53 [Permalink]
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the universe is a big place, and kind of empty. we're stuck here for the foreseeable future. those bug-eyed monsters are gonna have to find us. if the velocity of light is really the ultimate speed limit we may never meet an alien civilization.
comrade billyboy |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2001 : 18:42:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
the universe is a big place, and kind of empty. we're stuck here for the foreseeable future. those bug-eyed monsters are gonna have to find us. if the velocity of light is really the ultimate speed limit we may never meet an alien civilization.
comrade billyboy
I totally agree with you. With all of the science fiction *fiction* about space travel floating around, the vastness of the universe (and the speed-of-light speed limit for space travel) are always forgotten or, if not, are felt possible to be overturned. There are many people (*true believers*) who think that humans (and space aliens) can travel to and from other galaxies. Sure... Whee!
ljbrs
Perfection Is a State of Growth... |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 06:03:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
There are many people (*true believers*) who think that humans (and space aliens) can travel to and from other galaxies.
Well, right now, we can't. But who knows? Maybe in a few centuries we may actually be living in space. Might be plausible for humans to live in space. Nothing's impossible, just that we don't have the right technology yet.
I've read a few sci-fi books which place our galaxy off in a remote corner. Given the sh*t going on on this planet, I wouldn't be surprised if we actually were off in a corner by ourselves. Who knows?
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 10:10:08 [Permalink]
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The idea of extra terrestrial intelligence is a really cool one, because it shows up just how many medieval-like fallacies we still hold without ever realizing it.
Would we even know intelligence if we found it? Considering that alien points of reference would by necessity be "alien" how would we know if it were intelligent or not?
Take for instance, here on Earth, the Cetaceans. The Dept. of the Navy has been trying since the mid-50's to communicate with Atlantic bottle nosed dolphins. This breed is a good size for transport, and they have brains that are slightly larger than humans and considerably more convoluted. Plus they actually talk to one another. They, it has been found by testing, can give one another complicated information while in separate tanks via telephone (your tax dollars at work).
The Odontoceti are a prime candidate as a second Earthly "intelligent" species. (Forget about the Mysticeti. Those things are just a bunch of sea going cows).
About five years ago the Navy made a major break through in communication. They found that dolphins did not speak using abstract sounds to represent objects, actions, and emotions. Rather they mimicked the reflected sound of their sonar and broadcast it into their friends melons and jaw bones, creating a duplicate "reality" in the other dolphins mind. You may have commented to someone that the way they described their vacation it made you feel like you were actually there. With dolphins, that is the case every time they speak.
It is now know that dolphins are not actually more intelligent than us but are vaguely somewhere around the intelligence of low land gorillas.
Of course when you get to Physeter macrocephalus (Great Sperm Whale) you find the largest most convoluted brain that has ever existed in the history of life on Earth. Are Sperm Whales super intelligent? We haven't a clue.
The argument for the proportion of brain size in relation to body mass (elephants have brains that are four times the size of ours but have to run bodies that are many times larger) falls apart with marine mammals. Their nervous systems are much simpler and, living in the water, they are, in effect, weightless.
Every time in speculation that we consider Alien intelligence it is a duplicate of ours. They make artificial things. They are interested in exploring, etc. etc. And yet here on Earth we have giant creatures who live in a slightly alien environment (the ocean) and we aren't sure if they are intelligent or not.
We don't even really know how to find out.
In the Spring I went to a talk given by Dr Timothy Ferris on the subject of the search for Alien intelligence. He recommends that we look for it while at the same time we not broadcast that we were doing so. As he put it, "You don't walk through the jungle calling HERE KITTY, KITTY, KITTY"
I asked him what he thought that we should look for and was surprised by his answer. I pointed out that Pulsars accurately filled his description. But Pulsars had been rejected. Yes, he replied, on the same day that they were discovered because they had a natural explanation.
I wonder. Looking at the dark side of Earth from space I can think of any number of natural explanations for the city lights.
Would we even know extraterrestrial intelligence if we saw it? Have we, in fact, already seen it and discounted it?
If only Michael Rennie and his robot pal would show up and simplify things
Gort, Klaatu…..er…um…oh, oh…..what the heck came next? 
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 10:20:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gort, Klaatu…..er…um…oh, oh…..what the heck came next?
berada nikto.
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 10:37:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
berada nikto.
Thanks TD. The world was almost lost because of a "senior moment." Phew!
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 21:19:58 [Permalink]
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Nice commentary, Slater. Humans could probably recognize a *technological* intelligence, but just as with cetaceans we may have trouble figuring out a non-technological intelligence. I suspect that any species which develops a technological culture will discover mathematics, and that's often touted as a good starting point for communication. But supersmart jellyfish could live under the ice of worlds like Europa--never see the stars, never have any inkling of the Universe--and we would have no clue. And as Slater suggests, even if we 'discovered' them we might not recognize their intelligence because it might have virtually nothing in common with ours.
I'm old enough to remember when it was sort of assumed that the moons of Jupiter and Saturn were pretty much alike; now we know that they're wildly different. I suspect that if we ever encounter a bunch of extraterrestrial lifeforms we'll find them various beyond our imagining.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes"
Edited by - Dog_Ed on 08/20/2001 21:21:20 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 18:31:17 [Permalink]
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Right, right, right...
But until intelligent extraterrestrials are capable of sending signals across the universe to us, we will never know of their intelligent existence. The Romans and Greeks had intelligent civilizations but were incapable of transmitting messages across the universe. Scientists have only understood electromagnetic radiation for a relatively short time. We may never know of the existence of intelligent extraterrestrials, because they may never develop the science capable of sending us that information. Those with the capability may have killed each other off early on, leaving no trace behind to help us us to discover their existence.
I personally believe (since intelligent life exists here) that somewhere, in this vast universe, there must exist other intelligent life, but that we may never be in contact with them.
Then again. Do not forget. If intelligent creatures are able to get this far to visit our planet, we would be readily available FOOD to satisfy their hunger...
ljbrs 
Perfection Is a State of Growth...
Edited by - ljbrs on 08/22/2001 19:21:42 |
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Russ
New Member
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 11:10:07 [Permalink]
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I think it verges on pointless to speculate about intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. First of all, we don't know were we are in the "development cycle". We could be the first born and all other life is somewhere behind us evolutionarily speaking. On the other side of the coin, we could be the last flicker of life and there is no one left for us to find. Our technology does not allow us to find out.
Everyone seems to assume we are coming into the universe somewhere in the middle and that the first born are already space faring and communicative. Further, what's so special about humanity? With some odd hundred quintillion stars in (our) visible universe our voice could be just one more squeak in the cacophony generated by other worlds.
In short, humanity strikes me as being extremely egotistical.
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 12:03:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've read a few sci-fi books which place our galaxy off in a remote corner. Given the sh*t going on on this planet, I wouldn't be surprised if we actually were off in a corner by ourselves. Who knows? [James]
You mean *gasp* we may have been placed in a time-out corner?
The Milky Way galaxy could be one huge penal colony for errant species like Homo Sapiens? Sounds like somewthing Rod Serling would have written.
(:raig
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 14:09:01 [Permalink]
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Slater says (a lot of interesting things, and then...) quote:
"In the Spring I went to a talk given by Dr Timothy Ferris on the subject of the search for Alien intelligence."
(Tim Ferris is one of my heroes BTW.)
Your insights are very well put. I was thinking also of another analogy concerning alien intelligence.
Pretend that everything here on Earth is exactly the same, except there are no ants (or bees). (I realize if that were true, it would be a lot different, but let's just pretend we have no experience with engineering without our definition of "intelligence.")
Now picture that somehow we find an alien "civilization." They have tools, communication, instrumentalities, and advanced technology, and they are "ants." (I don't mean they look like bugs, or live in dirt mounds, and have big pinchers.)
I do mean that, like ants or bees, they are organized, engineer things, and have their own "society." They might be transmitting into space for thousands of years not to communicate with us, but just as a result of going about their "industrial business." (We're their "aliens.")
If this were so, how would we communicate with them? (Or should we?) Let's say they were within 50 light years, but we never detected them until now. (Not an impossible scenario.) Knowing human nature (i.e. they are the "ants" but we are the "monkeys" and we have to go see what's over the next hill,) we would eventually have to send a probe to their system. Hopefully to go undetected, so we could observe them up closer. We might have to wait 75 years or so for it to get there, and another 50 for transmission. (That's if it was really fast getting there!)
But my main point is, if we pretend we have no experience with colony insects, and then try to surmise how we would deal with them, that might give an inkling of what an alien civilization would be like. How do we "communicate" with ants today? (Aside from a can of Raid.) We don't. We observe them. We perhaps could interact and run tests on them to see what they do. (Now we are the "cold, calculating" aliens.) Anyway, that's one alien idea. We need to expand the idea of "civilization" to include "life" of any that we may or may not be able to communicate with.
(Or they might be like the nasty but compelling "Chiana" from Farscape.)
(-;
Chip
"I'd never join an organization that would have a man like me as a member." |
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 18:46:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
You mean *gasp* we may have been placed in a time-out corner?
That's one possible solution to the Fermi Paradox. Although I think he called it the 'cosmic zoo'. Sort of a "prime directive" sorta thing, they are still waiting to see if we blow ourselves up or not...
The UFO nuts, or some of them anyway, take this view too. That they are just observing us.
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2001 : 18:20:52 [Permalink]
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So why was the thought that Pulsars might be artificial abandoned so quickly? I've never heard an actual explanation of the reasoning behind this.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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