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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2001 : 10:47:31 [Permalink]
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The only measurement I have seen is how much money is spent on mediums, spiritual guidance,readings etc....
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 11:41:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
The way Wicca defines evil is as energies.
Here in San Francisco I get to hear a lot of talk about "energies." Usually in context with some Asian alternative something or other.
I have always wondered just what short of energy is being talked about. It's not kinetic or potential. Not electrical or heat nor anything that I have heard of.
What are these "energies," and how do you measure them?
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
The energies referred to are not physicial energies, rather they are mental energies. They are not measureable using modern science. (May not be measureable at all.) It is more of a conceptual energy (defined by faith, rather than science.). When talking about good and evil, one usually is in the realm of religion/philosophy rather than hard science. Science can describe phenomenon and actions, science cannot expain them in terms of good or evil.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 12:22:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
The energies referred to are not physicial energies, rather they are mental energies. They are not measureable using modern science. (May not be measureable at all.)
Mental energies? That would be electricity. But you seem to be talking about mental energy in the absence of a physical brain.And for some reason saying that you cannot prove what you say.
This is a corner that I am backed into on a regular bases in these threads. I'm am trying to understand what you are talking about, but I'm failing miserably.
When you use the word "energy" are you useing it only as a poetic metaphor?
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 12:52:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
The energies referred to are not physicial energies, rather they are mental energies. They are not measureable using modern science. (May not be measureable at all.)
Mental energies? That would be electricity. But you seem to be talking about mental energy in the absence of a physical brain.And for some reason saying that you cannot prove what you say.
This is a corner that I am backed into on a regular bases in these threads. I'm am trying to understand what you are talking about, but I'm failing miserably.
When you use the word "energy" are you useing it only as a poetic metaphor?
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Precisely. It is a metaphor. It is a concept that is a little difficult to expain outside of a religious context. (Primarily due to its religious origin.)
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2001 : 18:55:48 [Permalink]
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I was going to reply earlier but this thread has taken off and requires much more than I have time for now - tho am working on it off-line.
As to the human concept of evil. Evil is defined by the majority of a society. Is there and *evil* entity/force outside the human mind - no. Tho the concept makes for great non-plots in horror movies.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 08:51:52 [Permalink]
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Is there Evil? I posed this question orginally in the "Does God Exist" forum, based on at least an assertion, that morals required an authority, a divine one, and evil assumes a defiance of that authority, to have any real meaning. In the first posts of this thread, me thinks Espritch and PhDreamer, get right to the crux of the issue, by raising the question of "free will," and the rather arbitrary nature of the terms in the absence of an absolute authority. Without God, me reasoned correctly or not, we are left with a populist's consensus to the value of right and wrong, that will drift with the tides of time. The ten commandments of Mosses were written on stone tablets, the analogous nature of the image, isn't by accident me thinks.
Ethics, a code of "right conduct," is certainly straightforward enough. To my way of thinking, morality and evil become rather bland and ambiguous without god. There are certainly more precise words to describe good and bad stuff, in many shades of degree without resort to moral or evil. In any event, it was this consequence on morality and evil, that i sought to force an examination without god. Think tergiversant nails it with, "...,that there is no aspect of moral judgments which exists external to the thoughts of conscious beings such as ourselves, and hence no "objective" right and wrong."
Enter stage left, Slater, no polictal inference intended, armed with an impressive command of, what he describes as nonsense, the scriptures, a fist full of assumptions about myself, delivering a personal insult in his second post, and yeah, some good points. When asked for the basis for, or to explain, his attack on me, personally, he responded with evasions. Knowing it to be frivolous, still was unable to fully regain me composure, perhaps his objective. Confess me finds, insults and exclamations of "Oh not this again," or "Why must Xians always..," in place of reasonable arguments, offensive, certainly unscientific, although know it to be a quite common practice on the web. Just wish me could stay above it..., haven't as yet.
Slater, you claim to be a christian author scientist, and with equal aplomb, you claim there is no god. Am willing to take you at your word, but there are some glaring inconsistences with your claims. The one with being christian and there being no god, is obvious enough. Know of no scientific claim of there being proof of god's nonexistence. Am willing to keep an open mind, too, and should you care to offer such proof, will honestly examine it, even accept it, should me find it irrefutable. Think there just nothing in science's toolbox to address issues of, what did you say.., the supernatural. That leaves the author's hat left, and in the absence of proof, it, too, would be fiction, or a personal opinion. As an opinion, it is equally as valid, as mine to a claim of god's existence. You have made the accusation, that am changing the definition of god, but offer no support to validate it. You respect those, who don't want to be public with their views, yet derided my own reluctance become public with my own inner thoughts, as though being incomprehensible to you. (Breathing deeply, better change tack's..)
Thought you were making solid ground with your arguments about "mental states" and "feelings." But lost it before me got to them. But in point of fact, SIC! , didn't present "god" as a FACT, only my own experiences as the basis of the fact of my personal belief. And with your reference to that farside cartoon, thought you were ironically on the mark.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 09:38:51 [Permalink]
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Slater, if I may interject, the confusion comes from this exchange:
Nubiwan sayeth:
quote:
Think I demonstrated, that they overlap, there can be an author, who is also a christian, and a scientist. Which i am not, obiviously.
To which you replied:
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That's okay, I am.
So know Nubiwan believes (as it appears you said) that you are an author, who is a Christian, and a scientist.
I'm sure you meant you were just an author who is a scientist, correct?
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Jim
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 13:48:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
As to the human concept of evil. Evil is defined by the majority of a society. Is there and *evil* entity/force outside the human mind - no. Tho the concept makes for great non-plots in horror movies.
I am not sure I buy that. There is no way to honestly prove what a "majority of a society" thinks about anything. Evil would seem to be some of the "more wrong" wrongs. Like murder or rape. And a society would probably agree that these are wrong or evil. I'm not sure of any time that we know of where these things were accepted as morally right. Maybe in some small cultic societies, but not in large populations.
I think what some people are doing in this discussion is describing what the masses think, or what society thinks. The real question is what the individual thinks.
I do not agree that there is no evil force/entity outside our existence. I can't prove it, just a belief. I do, however believe that most of the evil we see is of human origin. Too many people use the other one as a cop out.
Jim
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 15:01:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think what some people are doing in this discussion is describing what the masses think, or what society thinks. The real question is what the individual thinks.
That is what I, as an independant thinking individual, think. Evil is defined by the society in which an individual resides. That which grossly goes against the socially accepted norm is evil.
For acceptance of gross evil on a social scale - try the Nazis, the Taliban - I'm sure there are a few others.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 08/22/2001 15:03:06 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 15:35:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater, if I may interject, the confusion comes from this exchange:
... Which i am not, obiviously.
I'm sure you meant you were just an author who is a scientist, correct?
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[/quote]
I thought Nubiwhan was saying only that he was not a scientist.
He does make me want to pick up Finnegans Wake and give it another shot at understanding what it says, though.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 16:18:53 [Permalink]
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Slater, you claim to be a christian author scientist, and with equal aplomb, you claim there is no god.
No, I never said that. I am an Atheist, a working scientist and a published author. The Christian part are words that you put in my mouth.
Know of no scientific claim of there being proof of god's nonexistence.
To set the record straight you can offer proof of existential claims but you can't (and don't have to) present proof of non- existential ones.
Think there just nothing in science's toolbox to address issues of, what did you say.., the supernatural.
Science deals solely with the natural (read: reality)
That leaves the author's hat left, and in the absence of proof, it, too, would be fiction, or a personal opinion.
That would be what my Editor at Doubleday is saying at this point. My writing on this web-site is my way of avoiding what I really should be doing.
It's a hell of a lot easier to respond than it is to create.
You respect those, who don't want to be public with their views, yet derided my own reluctance become public with my own inner thoughts, as though being incomprehensible to you.
I respect those who don't wish their views to be part of a public forum, and those who do. Those who use public forums and expect their views to be above comment, or want to participate with only vague references to their views, I hold another opinion on. To "tease" is not a valid way to share information.
But in point of fact, SIC! , didn't present "god" as a FACT, only
my own experiences as the basis of the fact of my personal belief. And with your reference to that farside cartoon, thought you were ironically on the mark.
The credit for that cartoon belongs to Harris and not Larson.
The personal problem that I am running into here is the difference between "Pagan" beliefs and Christian. The Pagans have an art, a poetic metaphor, in their religion. The Christians view all their metaphors (god, eternal life, devil, born again, resurrection, etc.) as if they were facts based in reality.
I've been using the "Christian brush" to tar everyone, and it was wrong of me to do so.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Edited by - slater on 08/22/2001 16:21:33 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 19:22:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am an Atheist, a working scientist and a published author.
Johnpaul, if you don't mind me asking, could you direct me to some of your work? I'd love to read it. Contact me in private, if you wish. tokyodreamer@hotmail.com
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 23:33:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
That is what I, as an independant thinking individual, think. Evil is defined by the society in which an individual resides. That which grossly goes against the socially accepted norm is evil.
For acceptance of gross evil on a social scale - try the Nazis, the Taliban - I'm sure there are a few others.
Well, Trish, this is the point, isn't it? Without an absolute authority supporting morality, or defining the defiance of evil, all such judgements of evil are subjective. The good Nazi goes about burning the bodies of Jews, a perfectly accepted and encouraged norm of the society of his time. The good muslim morally sets about eradicating the idols of the infidel, and a bit of history of humanity as well, with the blessings and directions of the Taliban. Secure within your own society, which may tolerate independant thinking currently, you are free to brand their actions as evil.
Might makes right, right is moral, and the victors get to write the history. The weak are the losers, they lose because they are immoral, and are known as evil in the history books. This is a consenquence of no absolute moral authority IMO.
quote:
,... me want to pick up Finnegans Wake and give it another shot at understanding what it says, though.
The credit for that cartoon belongs to Harris and not Larson.
Yes, Harris, you are right, a gem of a cartoon. Have found the revelations of Talisker to be of comfort as well. At least the clouds of confusion begin to clear from the issues of significance.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 23:38:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Might makes right, right is moral, and the victors get to write the history. The weak are the losers, they lose because they are immoral, and are known as evil in the history books. This is a consenquence of no absolute moral authority IMO.
This is called reality. This is how it has been, this is how it will be. What you desire does not and has not and will not exist no matter how hard you want it to.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2001 : 01:02:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
This is called reality. This is how it has been, this is how it will be.
What you desire does not and has not and will not exist no matter how hard you want it to.
@tomic
Perhaps.
How would you presume to "know" what i "desire?" This is just pathetic, that with such certainty, you allow yourself to make statements, of what you have no way of knowing. *LOL* Just hope it isn't a habit.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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