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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/26/2004 : 03:24:36 [Permalink]
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The entire AG prison, from it's inception as a US prison to the abuse of these Iraqi prisoners, demonstrates some serious problems with our forces in Iraq.
1. Poor judgement on the part of the leadership. Why didn't we bulldoze AG? It was a torture/rape/opression symbol of the first order. Instead, we occupy it and prove to the Arab world that we are no better than Saddam. (that will be their perception anyway, despite anything we do to the good there now we will always have AG looming over us). And... as yet, nobody has lost their job over this one. We just file charges against a couple of kids at the bottom of the food chain and villify them to the max. Yes, they are responsible for their actions, but (having been in the military some number of years ago) the grunts at the bottom don't make policy decisions. Also, I find it incredulous when the commanders claim ignorance of what was occuring in AG. If they didn't know what was going on... then they are guilty of command negligence at best.
2. Destruction of our (already weak) credibility in the region. Do I need to elaborate on this one?
I could go on.....
The US should have made effort beyond the call to ensure the fair treatment of any and all prisoners we held in Iraq. It boggles my mind when I try to think of a reason to NOT follow the Geneva Convention for prisoners in Iraq.
This is right up there with things like "Iraq has WMD, and they are gonna use them on the USA", and "Bin Laden Determined to Stike in the US is a historical document..." and....
Ok, getting tired and not putting thoughts together as coherently as I would like.... lol. May come back and edit for clarity if needed :) |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2004 : 09:29:30 [Permalink]
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Dude,
There are several of us on this forum that are former military or current military. Most of us have expressed the same opinions as you with regard to the abuses at AG. Disgusting. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2004 : 15:25:11 [Permalink]
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I have also served in the US Army. As I can claim to have achieved no rank greater than corporal, I am familiar with the workings of the bottom rungs of the military. I can concieve of no situation where 5 or 10 lower enlisted people would conspire to do the things done in AG without encouragement or direction from higher up or outside the CoC.
I actually feel sorry for the kids who are currently taking the brunt of the blame for this and can hope that the investigation sends a few of their superiors to the rock-yard (Levenworth, where they make big rocks into little rocks all day with hammers, and live under very strict military punishment dicipline) with them. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 20:43:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
As for trading places with the man on the box, sometimes the way I feel, I don't know that he's not in a better place, but that's just me.
Then, by all means, why not pose for some similar picture, and the post it here? Please do it without the cover on your head, so I have a chance to determine if the look on your face is pure, honest horror or just faked.
That man wouldn't be standing there if he wasn't convinced he'd die if he fell off.
That's rediculous.
quote:
quote:
America came in, guns blazing, proclaiming they would liberate the people. And what did the Iraqi people get? The same shit that's been happening to them the last 20 years.
It's their own fault.
quote:
Cutting off someones head in retaliation for taking off someones clothes is not reasoning.
Reality check please.
We all (including them) know that these picture are just the top of the iceberg. Had there only been pics of nude prisoners... but there were worse.
I don't know that there were other photos. I can't spectulate. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 20:53:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I have been assaulted but never raped, but I've met people who have been. They have been damaged in their spirit in ways that make me happy that I've only been assaulted. Since sex is so much more intimate, the psychological damage is so much worse. Bones heal. Cuts heal, and the scar is usually skin deep. But emotional trauma takes very long time to heal, if it ever does.
Oh please. The damage is so much worse? Do you know what it's like to have a gun pointed in your face and robbed. Or come home and see your house ransacked and treasured possions taken? Please tell me that's not emotional trauma. Come live in Los Angeles and live everyday worrying about walking on the streets day or night. Or even being in your own home and worry about every sound and run to the window thinking someone is breaking into your car. Trauma is different to each person and our lives are changed by it no mater if is was a sex related crime or not. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 21:04:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Jesus, Woody. Are you just saying this stuff to get a reaction about of people?
There are reports of American soldiers raping and sodomizing Iraqui prisoners--most of whom (70-90%) appear to be innocent, according to the Red Cross. A 15 year old boy was raped. Others were sodomized with light sticks, beaten, terrorized with dogs and possibly murdered. I could go into more detail, but I won't. Even in the horror and chaos of war, it's impossible to logically or morally justify this behavior.
I was commenting on the 1st photos I saw. Just the nudes. Hadn't and still haven't heard those other reports.
quote:
Victims, victim advocates, doctors, police, psychologists, and rape trauma counselors believe rape is a distinct, horrible violation of someone's humanity. I can't imagine the lack of empathy that would prompt someone to dismiss it.
They can believe what they want. See the post just before this one. I said there are various traumas people suffer, IMO they are just as bad. But when it's YOU, it's the worst thing. Never having been beat up like that and only having had other crimes that to this day are still a scary memory.....that's my trauma, so I can't say how someone else thinks of their situation. How can anyone put a degree on one persons expierence than another. If one is afraid to open their door each time they come home because of having been burglarized before, that's as frightening to them as what ever has happened to anyone else. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 21:08:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Woody,
As signatories of the Geneva Conventions, the American military should be held to the standards of a legally and binding contract accepted by our Congress, regardless of with whom we are dealing and their standards of treating POWs. Our standards should be and must be held to those which are laid out in the Geneva Conventions. That this barbarity occured shows a lack of training, discipline, honor, integrity, leadership, etc, on the part of those officers and enlisted involved in the degradation of another individual. Leadership goes downhill, from the CIC to the lowest Pvt. Says something with regards to our current leadership, doesn't it.
Edited to Add:
It even violates our own Constitution, you know the bit prohibiting the use of cruel and unusual punishment.
It's the word torture that I had the problem with. I think being nude is not the same as having bamboo under your finger nails. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 05:58:03 [Permalink]
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Woody wrote:quote:
It's the word torture that I had the problem with. I think being nude is not the same as having bamboo under your finger nails.
And yet you hypocritically say that trauma is different for everyone, and YOU aren't those nude people. Shouldn't you consider it "the worst thing" for them, just like you're telling other people to do for you?
By the way, I've lived as you describe, terrified by my own neighborhood for years. I've also known people who've been raped. Given a choice, I'd much rather go back to being terrified than getting raped. There's no contest, in my mind, which is worse. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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jhee
New Member
Cayman Islands
5 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 21:05:30 [Permalink]
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Gosh, I feel right at home here. I'm sure this is all "tounge in cheek" commentary.
Anyway, my two centz. The iraqis are the victims of the same ole sh*T. cutting off heads is not about the so-called "torture' it's about us telling them how to run their own country, as usual. We know what is best for everyone else. I think the scariest thing I've evr heard is a knock on the door and a voice saying, "I'm from the covernment, and I'm here to HELP you." I am old. I think america is in the final throes of it's primacy in the world and the "planners" see desperate deeds as the thing desperate people do when desperate. which brings me to one of my many favorite qoutes, here tis:
"you know what you know, you know?" BYEBYE |
"get on, get off or get out the way!" |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 23:25:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'd much rather go back to being terrified than getting raped. There's no contest, in my mind, which is worse.
I'd rather be nude than have bamboo under my nails. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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