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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
 Posted - 05/25/2004 : 03:38:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Dates should be 1352 BCE - 1336 BCE. Still, I have the problem of judaism being claim to be founded before or after this time.
On the contrary, I would think the odds are rather high that Judaism came into being before or after that time.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Some claim that the founding of Judaism was around 1800 BCE, but some place it at around 1300 BCE.
I suspect the Biblical "founding of Judaism" would be linked to the Exodus and the giving of the Torah, typically dated to circa 1440 or circa 1290 BCE. Others would associate it with the writing of Deuteronomy, thought by many to be dated to Josiah, circa 622 BCE.
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 07:30:07 [Permalink]
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| If you have not opened any of Verlch's links, I recommend that you do so. It is like a whos-who of the oddest, most fringe elements on the net. Quite an interesting and humorous read. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 07:32:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000704.htm
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000214.htm
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/danstat.htm
Hi, verlch. The websites are nice. The summary of the history of Babylon contains a number of errors, though nothing that is relevant to the present discussion.
quote:
Babylon the great is fallen, the whore that made all nations drink the wine of the wrath of her fornication. ---somewhere in the bible!!!
Funny, but also quite representative.
quote:
Today, the names that are used for the days of the week are all named after the sun, moon, or pagan gods. Sunday ("sun" day), Monday ("moon" day), Tuesday ("Tiwe's" day), Wednesday ("Woden's" day), Thursday ("Thor's" day), Friday ("Frie's" day) and Saturday ("Saturn's" day) are all pagan in origin.
This is true-- our days are named for various mythological characters. But let's be honest: much of the whole of the Judeo-Christian religion is based on Near Eastern (i.e. pagan) religion.
quote:
Another fine example of worshipping the creation instead of the creator!!!
That's all fine and dandy, but I'd like to point out that none of this is relevant to the original point: earlier, you argued, complete with strange websites linked as evidence, that sun worship originated in Babylon. According to you and your references, Baal was somehow a sun god who held a high position in the ancient Babylonian pantheon. None of this is true.
You made a point about obelisks being a part of this Babylonian sun worship is only partly true: obelisks are about sun worship (I have doubts about the whole phallic thing), but they are connected in no way to Babylon or Mesopotamia.
Some of the sites you posted made amazing claims about Babylonain priests leaving Babylon after Alexander and making their way to Rome to further the worship of Baal the sun god. Ignoring, for a moment, the false Baal-sun god connection, this claim is completely, to my knowledge, unsupported by any actual data.
So let's this time try and stick to the original point, 'K? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 07:52:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Dates should be 1352 BCE - 1336 BCE. Still, I have the problem of judaism being claim to be founded before or after this time.
On the contrary, I would think the odds are rather high that Judaism came into being before or after that time.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Some claim that the founding of Judaism was around 1800 BCE, but some place it at around 1300 BCE.
I suspect the Biblical "founding of Judaism" would be linked to the Exodus and the giving of the Torah, typically dated to circa 1440 or circa 1290 BCE. Others would associate it with the writing of Deuteronomy, thought by many to be dated to Josiah, circa 622 BCE.
The problem I reference is the inexact date range which overlaps the reign of Amenhotep IV which gives the distinct possibility that the cult of the sun could have evolved into Judaism.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 08:16:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
http://www.toolong.com/images.htm
quote:
As surprising as it may seem, the symbol of the cross did not originate at the time of the crucifixion of Christ. It has been a pagan symbol used by sun worshipers since the time of Babel.
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Who was Sol the sun-god? It was a continuation of the Baal worship from ancient days. It was present in Egypt and back to ancient Babylon. December 25 is the birth day of Tammuz, the son of Semiramis, and the rebirth of Nimrod. The ancient legend is that a green tree sprang up on Brumalia, with the stump symbolizing Nimrod (Baal) and the green tree Tammuz. This festival is nothing more than witchcraft institutionalized in the church today as Christmas. It is Baal worship. Many Christians hold up their noses over ancient Israel who worshiped YHVH and also worshiped the baals. They think they would never do such things themselves. However, they are practicing the same Baal worship that people were criticized in the scriptures for, over 2500 years ago.
Hi verlch. It's hard to know where to begin critiquing this website, since it's replete with errors and lies. For instance, under the 'Chaldeans' section of the above-noted site, we find the following:
quote:
"Soon after the global flood of Noah's day, Nimrod, Noah's great grandson, the son of Cush began the kingdom of Babel. The civilization he started is known by historians as that of the Chaldeans.
There is evidence that the Chaldeans knew ELOHIM of Genesis who created heaven and earth. What a shame that they chose to worship and serve the created more than the Creator. The Cushite Chaldeans became polytheistic: worshipping the sun, moon and planets. In other words "sun worship." Bil-Nipru, which many scholars believe to be the Nimrod of the Bible, was elevated by man to the status of god and worshipped as the chief deity."
Rubbish. Chaldea is a term used to refer to Babylonia in the later periods (e.g. ca. 1000 BC), and not the earlier ones. Moreover, there is absolutely no proof that the cult of El-- a West Semitic god popular in the Ugaritic and, of course, Canaanite literature-- had speard to southern Mesopotamia even in the later periods.
And this bit about Bil-Nipru is just crazy. Where is there evidence of a person with that name? Is it /bil/</bel/, as in the Semitic "lord"? And then is Nipru<Nibru, the name for the ancient city of Nippur? Thus, perhaps, "Lord of Nippur"? I am not familiar with that personal name in Mesopotamia (though I admit that I've hardly been exposed to all names from all periods), or even names of the type "Bel-[City name]." I'm going to call BS on the whole thing. Also, is there a single reference to a "scholar" equating this Bil-Nipru guy to the biblical Nimrud?
And what's this total crap about "December 25 is the birth day of Tammuz, the son of Semiramis, and the rebirth of Nimrod"? Ugh. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 09:12:05 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
God's Calendar and The Pagan Calendar
Today, the names that are used for the days of the week are all named after the sun, moon, or pagan gods. Sunday ("sun" day), Monday ("moon" day), Tuesday ("Tiwe's" day), Wednesday ("Woden's" day), Thursday ("Thor's" day), Friday ("Frie's" day) and Saturday ("Saturn's" day) are all pagan in origin.
I think it's funny that verlch doesn't differentiate between any of the pagan religions. The word 'pagan', with a lower-case p, simply means "not Christian, Muslim or Jewish." With an upper-case P, it refers either to Neo-Paganism (which is very young, and not responsible for the names of the days of the week), or it means whatever the writer wants it to mean. In the above example supplied by verlch, most of the days are named after Norse gods (Oden, Thor, etc.), with the Roman god Saturn and some generic sun and moon gods tossed in.
Somehow - and perhaps verlch can explain it to us, since he is asserting this "fact" - these all come from a single Pagan-with-a-capital-P religion which had something to do with Babylon. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 12:03:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Sure I've got an IQ of 150...a dysleksic 150...but none the less 150....
What does that have to do with the post you quoted?
You still frantically dodge practically every question we send your way regarding false/erroneous statements you pull out of your magic hat.
With such a high IQ you should be able to answer my 100-pennies question in the "fugly"-thread in the Creationism/Evolution forum.
I'm not impressed.
What is the point of having a 500 horsepower engine in a car if the gearbox is stuck in first gear? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 13:08:15 [Permalink]
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You still frantically dodge practically every question we send your way regarding false/erroneous statements you pull out of your magic hat.
Every website I have shown you has been lies and in error. How can 100% of what I've shown be lies? That's like taking 100 pennies throwing them in the air and having 99 come up heads!!!! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 17:47:48 [Permalink]
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| Well we need the Babylonian expert to shed some light on this subject! I thought I had some pretty good websites back there and everybody said it was nothing but lies!? |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 18:14:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The problem I reference is the inexact date range which overlaps the reign of Amenhotep IV which gives the distinct possibility that the cult of the sun could have evolved into Judaism.
What, specifically, is this "distinct possibility"? Is it more or less than 12.8 percent? Is it more or less than 86.9 percent?
People who think in terms of 'distinct possibilies' rather than evidence are the easy prey of pseudoscience and idle conjecture. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 22:17:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Well we need the Babylonian expert to shed some light on this subject! I thought I had some pretty good websites back there and everybody said it was nothing but lies!?
Hi verlch. You asked for a "Babylonian expert" to comment on your sites. Allow me to introduce you to, while not quite an expert, a person who knows something-- at least a little bit-- about ancient Mesopotamia: me.
I call myself cuneiformist because it's what I do: I study the various languages of ancient Mesopotamia, most of which happen to be written in the cuneiform script.
As a graduate student in the field, I'm writing a dissertation on a certain aspect of the royal and provincial administration of sourthern Babylonia at the end of the second mellinnium BCE. While not an expert an every aspect of Mesopotamian-- or Babylonian-- culture, I have next to me on rows of shelves myriad reference books, dictionaries, text editions, and journals that deal with Mesopotamian history, language, and culture.
You've already seen ny review of the sites you've posted. While some present generally accepted material, most put forward amazingly far-fetched ideas that have no grounding in reality. As I've noted earlier, I'd be happy to detail-- either here or via personal email-- what's wrong with some of the things you seem to subscribe to (e.g. Baal in Babylon, or Baal as a sun god, etc.).
Lies, verlch? It's hard to say. But certainly, the information you've been relying on simply doesn't agree with the available data.
Do let me know if you're interested in knowing more. I think that for too long, Babylon (and Mesopotamia) has gotten the short shrift in the public eye in terms of ancient history, and it pains me to see it used in the malicious way to have done. So I'm all too happy to set the record straight-- if you're willing to listen! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 06:41:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The problem I reference is the inexact date range which overlaps the reign of Amenhotep IV which gives the distinct possibility that the cult of the sun could have evolved into Judaism.
What, specifically, is this "distinct possibility"? Is it more or less than 12.8 percent? Is it more or less than 86.9 percent?
People who think in terms of 'distinct possibilies' rather than evidence are the easy prey of pseudoscience and idle conjecture.
Again, you use ad hominems instead of dealing directly with the issue which is the questionable nature of when Judaism was founded. By distinct possibility, it means that the foundation of Judaism is reported as being between 1800 BCE and 1300 BCE. The reign of Amenhotep IV was between these two points. The remnant followers of the sun cult fled to the general area where Judaism arose.
This evidence leads me to believe that the theory has a chance of being correct but that it could not be determined without further evidence. Unless you have absolute evidence of the founding of the Jewish faith, or some other evidence which would absolutely refute the theory, then you have no basis to scoff.
When you get a valid arguement instead of deriding your opponent as mentally inferior, let me know. Until then, your assertations are suspect. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 05/26/2004 06:44:32 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 06:42:58 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist wrote:quote:
Lies, verlch? It's hard to say. But certainly, the information you've been relying on simply doesn't agree with the available data.
He's getting the 'lies' bit from the other thread. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who repeats a bit of misinformation more than 20 years after it's been shown to be wrong is probably purposefully lying. The web sites which verlch has referenced fall under this umbrella, with regard to the theory of evolution at least (dunno about Babylon or the wicked Catholics), especially because the correct information has been available widely, and some of it is even publicized by other creationist sources like Answers in Genesis. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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