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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 05/26/2004 : 07:01:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Cuneiformist wrote:quote:
Lies, verlch? It's hard to say. But certainly, the information you've been relying on simply doesn't agree with the available data.
He's getting the 'lies' bit from the other thread. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who repeats a bit of misinformation more than 20 years after it's been shown to be wrong is probably purposefully lying. The web sites which verlch has referenced fall under this umbrella, with regard to the theory of evolution at least (dunno about Babylon or the wicked Catholics), especially because the correct information has been available widely, and some of it is even publicized by other creationist sources like Answers in Genesis.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 14:28:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Again, you use ad hominems ...
I characterized your position, not you. Stop whining.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
By distinct possibility, it means that the foundation of Judaism is reported as being between 1800 BCE and 1300 BCE. The reign of Amenhotep IV was between these two points. The remnant followers of the sun cult fled to the general area where Judaism arose.
This evidence ...
What evidence? I must have missed it while scanning your complaints.
Please provide your evidence that - "The remnant followers of the sun cult fled to the general area where Judaism arose", and
- that this occurred before the formations of Judaism, and
- that these remnants influenced the evolution of Judaism in any way whatsoever.
You might also try to find evidence of Israelite monotheism (as opposed to monolatry) before the Josiah reforms.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
... leads me to believe that the theory has a chance of being correct but that it could not be determined without further evidence.
Since you've provided no evidence at all, talk of "further evidence" is premature. Furthermore, if "theory" is accepted as being defined as a testable (and, thereby, falsifiable) explanation of observed phenomena, you have no theory, simply speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
When you get a valid arguement instead of deriding your opponent as mentally inferior, let me know. Until then, your assertations are suspect.
I have no idea whether or not you are mentally inferior, nor am I sure that it matters much. I do, however, get impatient with idle speculation posturing as theory, particularly when there is more than enough real theory out there to discuss. If you're at all interested, you might consider reading ...
Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic
From Epic to Canon: History and Literature in Ancient Israel
The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel
Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 07:09:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Again, you use ad hominems ...
I characterized your position, not you. Stop whining.
"People who think in terms of 'distinct possibilies' rather than evidence are the easy prey of pseudoscience and idle conjecture."
Forget this part?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
By distinct possibility, it means that the foundation of Judaism is reported as being between 1800 BCE and 1300 BCE. The reign of Amenhotep IV was between these two points. The remnant followers of the sun cult fled to the general area where Judaism arose.
This evidence ...
What evidence? I must have missed it while scanning your complaints.
Please provide your evidence that - "The remnant followers of the sun cult fled to the general area where Judaism arose", and
- that this occurred before the formations of Judaism, and
- that these remnants influenced the evolution of Judaism in any way whatsoever.
You might also try to find evidence of Israelite monotheism (as opposed to monolatry) before the Josiah reforms.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
... leads me to believe that the theory has a chance of being correct but that it could not be determined without further evidence.
Since you've provided no evidence at all, talk of "further evidence" is premature. Furthermore, if "theory" is accepted as being defined as a testable (and, thereby, falsifiable) explanation of observed phenomena, you have no theory, simply speculation.
Obviously, the inclusion of the word "theory" in this context has you hung up. Change it to hypothesis. The evidence concerning the founding of Judaism range from 1800 BCE to 1300 BCE. (Some claim it was founded by Abraham, some claim it was founded by Moses.) The followers of the sun cult scattered in all available directions. Their movements are not recorded after they get to the Egyptian borders. Kush (to the south), and Palistine and Syria (areas where Judaism came to power) to the north east were the main exodus points. As Heliopolis is in the northern portion of Egypt, some historians (as quoted by the History Channel concerning the reign of Ankhenaten) have found some writing which indicates the emigration of Aten worshipers to the northeast out of Thebes and Heliopolis.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
When you get a valid arguement instead of deriding your opponent as mentally inferior, let me know. Until then, your assertations are suspect.
I have no idea whether or not you are mentally inferior, nor am I sure that it matters much. I do, however, get impatient with idle speculation posturing as theory, particularly when there is more than enough real theory out there to discuss. If you're at all interested, you might consider reading ...
Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic
From Epic to Canon: History and Literature in Ancient Israel
The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel
Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 10:08:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Again, you use ad hominems ...
I characterized your position, not you. Stop whining.
"People who think in terms of 'distinct possibilies' rather than evidence are the easy prey of pseudoscience and idle conjecture." Forget this part?
Do you disagree with the observation?
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Obviously, the inclusion of the word "theory" in this context has you hung up. Change it to hypothesis.
Let's change it to conjecture.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The evidence concerning the founding of Judaism range from 1800 BCE to 1300 BCE.
What evidence?
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
(Some claim it was founded by Abraham, some claim it was founded by Moses.)
Claims are not evidence.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The followers of the sun cult scattered in all available directions.
How many, and according to whom?
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Their movements are not recorded after they get to the Egyptian borders.
How convenient. What of their movements before "they get to the Egyptian borders"? Were these recorded? Or are you simply layering conjecture on top of conjecture?
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 13:26:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Again, you use ad hominems ...
I characterized your position, not you. Stop whining.
"People who think in terms of 'distinct possibilies' rather than evidence are the easy prey of pseudoscience and idle conjecture." Forget this part?
Do you disagree with the observation?
Yes, I do.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Obviously, the inclusion of the word "theory" in this context has you hung up. Change it to hypothesis.
Let's change it to conjecture.
As you wish.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The evidence concerning the founding of Judaism range from 1800 BCE to 1300 BCE.
What evidence?
http://www.jewfaq.org/origins.htm
http://www.bible-history.com/resource/ah_isrl.htm
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
(Some claim it was founded by Abraham, some claim it was founded by Moses.)
Claims are not evidence.
Which calls into question when it was founded.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The followers of the sun cult scattered in all available directions.
How many, and according to whom?
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Their movements are not recorded after they get to the Egyptian borders.
How convenient. What of their movements before "they get to the Egyptian borders"? Were these recorded? Or are you simply layering conjecture on top of conjecture?
If you want me to research which History Channel program I was watching concerning the reign of Ankhenaten, I will. But it will take me some time. I was relying on the word of an expert. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 17:49:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
[quote]Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Again, you use ad hominems ...
I characterized your position, not you. Stop whining.
"People who think in terms of 'distinct possibilies' rather than evidence are the easy prey of pseudoscience and idle conjecture." Forget this part?
Do you disagree with the observation?
Yes, I do.[quote]
So you speculate rather than study. It's a joke. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2004 : 06:09:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Again, you use ad hominems ...
I characterized your position, not you. Stop whining.
"People who think in terms of 'distinct possibilies' rather than evidence are the easy prey of pseudoscience and idle conjecture." Forget this part?
Do you disagree with the observation?
Yes, I do.
So you speculate rather than study. It's a joke.
I speculate that something may be possible based on the available evidence (or lack thereof). I will put in study based on the time I have available and any sources quoted that may refute my position because I may be wrong. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2004 : 20:28:13 [Permalink]
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"not Christian, Muslim or Jewish."
I have no beef with the Jews...Sons of Jacob... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 12:06:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
"not Christian, Muslim or Jewish."
I have no beef with the Jews...Sons of Jacob...
Since I don't know where you got the above quote, I don't know why anyone would think that you had a problem with Judaism. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 19:59:47 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist wrote:quote:
Since I don't know where you got the above quote, I don't know why anyone would think that you had a problem with Judaism.
He got that quote from me, back on page two:I think it's funny that verlch doesn't differentiate between any of the pagan religions. The word 'pagan', with a lower-case p, simply means "not Christian, Muslim or Jewish." With an upper-case P, it refers either to Neo-Paganism (which is very young, and not responsible for the names of the days of the week), or it means whatever the writer wants it to mean. In the above example supplied by verlch, most of the days are named after Norse gods (Oden, Thor, etc.), with the Roman god Saturn and some generic sun and moon gods tossed in.
Somehow - and perhaps verlch can explain it to us, since he is asserting this "fact" - these all come from a single Pagan-with-a-capital-P religion which had something to do with Babylon. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 21:01:39 [Permalink]
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| Amazing. So you were aking him to distinguish what he meant by paganism, and he replies by saying that he's got nothing against Jews? Does he have any reading comprehension skills at all?!? Or are we the biggest idiots on earth for getting sucked into his trolling posts? |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 14:18:22 [Permalink]
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| wicked Catholics, there are many many many wonderful Catholics...so please don't attack the whole... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 14:20:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Somehow - and perhaps verlch can explain it to us, since he is asserting this "fact" - these all come from a single Pagan-with-a-capital-P religion which had something to do with Babylon.
Am I the class idiot or what, when did I every seem to care about upper or lower case P words???/ |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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