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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 05/29/2004 : 16:12:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The mainstream media are liberal. Name ONE major network evening news anchorman who is a registered republican.
...and when did news anchormen decide what news to report?
Who tells the journalists what way to angle the article they are writing in order to get published? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 18:06:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
I've got friends and coworkers that have been to the United States, and they all pretty much confirm the image presented in Swedish media. Now, before you blow of your socks again, let me inform you that I understand that there's more to America than just the pieces Michael Moore shows in The Awful Truth. The episodes airing in Sweden is the first season (I think) because the World Trade Center was still standing then. I'm sure the state of the nation has improved since then...
What can be said in the face of fundamentalist thinking like that?
Nothing, since it wasn't fundamentalist thinking. I don't know where you got that from.
Just because Swedish Television is airing The Awful Truth does not mean that Michael Moore's view of America is the predominant one in Swedish TV. I'm afraid you are jumping to conclusions, and whether or not this is because of your personal dislike of Michael Moore, or the politics for which it stands, I can not tell.
quote:
Listen, if you want to bash America, go ahead.
I don't deny that America has done a lot of great things. However, I will not forget that America has done some bad things too.
quote:
I'm sure that you get some entertainment value talking down about Americans.
Not as much entertainment as I get from people who freaks out because they believe I get much entertainment from talking down about Americans. What I really enjoy is people overreacting because they take themselves too seriously. Perhaps it is because I've learned to laugh at myself, and remembering how I was when I indeed was a religious guy who took myself too seriously. Though I was a Pentecostal, I wasn't as fundie(tm) as some young earth creationists visiting here, or the Fundiest half of Rapture Ready people.
I am now reformed, a friend of skepticism and science. I gave God the birdie-sign ten years ago.
quote:
No big deal.
That's good. With your reaction I mistakenly got the impression that it was a big deal. I'm glad I was wrong.
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Are we perfect? No.
I never expected you to be. No one can.quote:
Do we claim to be? No.
ehh... Well, not per say, but many of you claim to be the best there is. There are non-Americans that disagree.
quote:
If you decide to think that the people Moore bashes are what all Americans are like, that's your decision to make.
Where/how did you get the impression I think so? Again, I think your dislike of Michael Moore is clouding your judgement about me. I enjoy Michael Moore's The Awful Truth, don't hate me for doing that.
quote:
If you decide to view all Americans through the distorted rhetoric of Moore, no problem.
What did I say to make you believe I do?
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Do you think Germany would have honored your nations neutrality once they had solidified control of the rest of Europe and Russia?
Since we never got there, there is no way of knowing. Why do you ask?
quote:
Do you think there is some posibility that the decision of the US to liberate Europe from the Nazis has a direct relationship to your personal freedom?
I do not believe the US got involved in WW2 to keep the citizens of Sweden from being invaded by Germany. So my answer would be 'no'.
What would have happened to Europe if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbour? This question is just as valid as your question about Germany honouring Sweden's neutrality.
But this is just rhetoric...
quote:
Let me explain what it is your doing when you take a single point of view and use it to judge the entire US.
You're doing the same thing that fundies like Verlch do in defense of their god/creationism/bigotry/ect...
Since you have obviously misjudged me, and unfortunately locked yourself into the belief that I have judged the entire US because of Michael Moore, and started to bash back at me, are you any different?
quote:
Fundamentalist thinking at it's finest. Welcome to the fundie club Doc.
Dude, you just made my day. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 00:09:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Since you have obviously misjudged me, and unfortunately locked yourself into the belief that I have judged the entire US because of Michael Moore, and started to bash back at me, are you any different?
Well, this paragraph: quote:
I've got friends and coworkers that have been to the United States, and they all pretty much confirm the image presented in Swedish media. Now, before you blow of your socks again, let me inform you that I understand that there's more to America than just the pieces Michael Moore shows in The Awful Truth. The episodes airing in Sweden is the first season (I think) because the World Trade Center was still standing then. I'm sure the state of the nation has improved since then...
Starts off with your statement that your friends, the Swedish media, and Moore are the basis for your description of the American Establishment you refer to in this thread. The last sentance of the paragraph is pure sarcasm, which leads one to conclude that your denial of prejudgement in this paragraph is also of sarcastic intent.
What other conclusion should I be drawing from this, if not that you have judged the US by Moore's views?
And, I stand by my assertion that your reasoning in this matter is fundamentalist. You take one or two facts, fit them into a preconcieved notion, and reach a conclusion that is supported by your selected facts.... despite any evidence to the contrary or alternative explanations for your original facts.
Also, this is not bashing you... it's bashing your position and fallacy filled argument.
quote:
quote:
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Do you think there is some posibility that the decision of the US to liberate Europe from the Nazis has a direct relationship to your personal freedom?
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I do not believe the US got involved in WW2 to keep the citizens of Sweden from being invaded by Germany. So my answer would be 'no'.
I was not asking for an opinion on motivations, I was wondering if you think there is a direct causal link between the US invasion of Europe and the continued sovereignty of your country. I asked this because It is my contention that such a link exists, and it is evidence for my assertion that the US has contributed greatly to the freedoms and democracy enjoyed by the western world. (it was just the most obvious example I could think of) Which I then submit as evidence that the American Establishment is NOT accurately represented by Moore or the Sweedish media. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 04:53:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I was not asking for an opinion on motivations, I was wondering if you think there is a direct causal link between the US invasion of Europe and the continued sovereignty of your country. I asked this because It is my contention that such a link exists, and it is evidence for my assertion that the US has contributed greatly to the freedoms and democracy enjoyed by the western world.
As @tomic has already showed, this point of yours is moot, since the US wouldn't exist without the French aiding American rebels in the first place. If you want me thank a nation for the liberties I enjoy I might as well praise France.
quote:
Which I then submit as evidence that the American Establishment is NOT accurately represented by Moore or the Sweedish media.
Since you have no idea what view the Swedish media is representing, you are drawing unfounded conclusions about it.
Just because I said that Swedish TV is airing The Awful Truth you somehow conclude that we take it for gospel. The Awful Truth is entertainment. Are you so dense that you don't think we realise that?
BTW, go back to my original post as see that I first of all never used capital 'E' in establishment. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 05:23:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
While I would not call myself a liberal.... I must agree with you filthy. These people in congress and our appionted president are not true conservatives. They are religious zealots hiding behind the claim of political conservatism. It makes me sick.
And.... correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it religious zealots who flew planes into WTC?
Indeed. There were no atheists crashing airplanes on that horrid day.
I firmly believe that fundementalism in just about anything and religion in particular, is one of the greater evils that we have inflicted upon ourselves.
Islamic fundie lunatic, Christian fundie lunatic; the only difference in is the rhetoric.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 05:50:18 [Permalink]
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For the 1,000th time, we do not have a liberal media.
I don't care if every reporter in the country is a registered Democrat. Editors and news directors decide what to publish and broadcast, not reporters. AND, to say that we have a liberal bias in the media indicts an entire profession. Journalists are trained to be fair and to present multiple sides. You're essentially saying that all journalists are incapable of doing their job--that they're failures, really. That's hardly a reasonable indictment.
Before the war started, Bush was given a free ride on the Iraq war (and continued to be given one through must of it--really, up until the last couple months). The New York Times just this week published that they failed the American public by not asking harder questions of the Bush administration in the days leading up to the war. This is just one of the many, many ways we do NOT have a liberal media.
Oh...and there's no Santa Claus, either. And you really can't blow up a cat in the microwave.   |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 08:38:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
And you really can't blow up a cat in the microwave.
Y'know, I've beeen wondering about that. Now, I won't try the experiment, and my cat thanks you. 
Looking back a little farther, it was the 'liberal' press that kicked off the incredable, 70 million dollar, Clinton witch hunt that finally managed to discover that he lied about getting his knob polished. They ignored their responsibilities to the public and did the country a great, perhaps treasonous, disservice.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 15:28:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
And you really can't blow up a cat in the microwave.
Y'know, I've beeen wondering about that. Now, I won't try the experiment, and my cat thanks you.
Use an egg instead. Though I would advise against it if you feel uncomfortable cleaning up yucky stuff that smells. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 16:01:31 [Permalink]
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Don't need to Doc. One of my grandkids already did it. Her mother was not impressed. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 21:46:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
As @tomic has already showed, this point of yours is moot, since the US wouldn't exist without the French aiding American rebels in the first place. If you want me thank a nation for the liberties I enjoy I might as well praise France.
@tomic demonstrated no such thing.
The fact that the French helped the US secure freedom does NOT invalidate any of the premises of my argument. Can you say straw man?
And yes, you could point out the French assistance during the US revolutionary war and thank the French for their contribution to the freedom and democracy enjoyed by the western world.
quote:
I don't care if every reporter in the country is a registered Democrat. Editors and news directors decide what to publish and broadcast, not reporters. AND, to say that we have a liberal bias in the media indicts an entire profession. Journalists are trained to be fair and to present multiple sides. You're essentially saying that all journalists are incapable of doing their job--that they're failures, really. That's hardly a reasonable indictment.
I was refering to the mainstream media (if I did not make that clear in my posts, I apologize and clarify it now). The three major broadcast networks and the large newspapers from our major cities and the two major wire services and two of the three major cable news channels. So no, I'm not claiming that ALL journalists are liberal, just the ones who work for the major outlets.
And yes, I can accuse them of having a liberal bias. This does not mean that they don;t try to maintain objectivity, it simply means that the way in which they present information is sometimes slanted. Of course, you may choose to disagree (which I think you have already).
Watch 4 hours of FOX news while recording the same 4 hours of CNN and watch it right after. Then tell me that CNN doesn't present a liberal bias.... FOX, you wil notice, will definitely present a conservative bias. (assuming you can stand to watch 4 hours of FOX... I don't think I could) |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 23:27:11 [Permalink]
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I know I'm arriving a bit late to this party, but...
Dude wrote:quote:
Well, this paragraph:
[snip]
Starts off with your statement that your friends, the Swedish media, and Moore are the basis for your description of the American Establishment you refer to in this thread. The last sentance of the paragraph is pure sarcasm, which leads one to conclude that your denial of prejudgement in this paragraph is also of sarcastic intent.
What other conclusion should I be drawing from this, if not that you have judged the US by Moore's views?
And, I stand by my assertion that your reasoning in this matter is fundamentalist. You take one or two facts, fit them into a preconcieved notion, and reach a conclusion that is supported by your selected facts.... despite any evidence to the contrary or alternative explanations for your original facts.
Indeed. Let's examine Mab's paragraph again:I've got friends and coworkers that have been to the United States, and they all pretty much confirm the image presented in Swedish media. In what part of that sentence does Mab state that his "friends, the Swedish media, and Moore" are the sole basis for his opinions on America?Now, before you blow of your socks again, let me inform you that I understand that there's more to America than just the pieces Michael Moore shows in The Awful Truth. Here, Mab is not denying prejudgement, he is only denying that he thinks Moore is the most complete source of knowledge about America.The episodes airing in Sweden is the first season (I think) because the World Trade Center was still standing then. This is Mab showing one of the sure signs of a shortcoming of this source: the fact that the views presented are at least three years old.I'm sure the state of the nation has improved since then... And this sure is pure sarcasm, but you failed to ask why, and instead jumped to a conclusion which seems to be supported only by selected facts with a less-than-charitable interpretation. Perhaps this is an "alternative explanation" which you missed. Or, perhaps Mab's lack of reply to these paragraphs of yours was a tacit agreement. I can't tell, of course.quote:
Also, this is not bashing you... it's bashing your position and fallacy filled argument.
It's also important to note that Mab didn't really define "American Establishment," other than to list a few American establishments which are typically run by conservatives. You, Dude, appear to be conflating "American Establishment" with "the entire population of the United States of America," and thus perhaps creating a straw man to rail against.
Later on, you wrote:quote:
The fact that the French helped the US secure freedom does NOT invalidate any of the premises of my argument. Can you say straw man?
I can say "irrelevant." The entire who-liberated-whom line of discussion is completely irrelevant to the real arguments going on in this thread. France's help during the American Revolution doesn't invalidate the premises of your argument because the U.S.'s decision to engage in war in Europe 60 or so years ago has no bearing whatsoever on what the current administration is doing to American public relations with the world. Your argument regarding Sweden's freedom was nothing but a non-sequitor, as Mab correctly identified it.
It doesn't matter one bit whether or not your argument has sound premises if it's completely unrelated to the discussion at hand.
And later,quote:
Watch 4 hours of FOX news while recording the same 4 hours of CNN and watch it right after. Then tell me that CNN doesn't present a liberal bias.... FOX, you wil notice, will definitely present a conservative bias. (assuming you can stand to watch 4 hours of FOX... I don't think I could)
You're not seriously suggesting that people should compare some other news source to something which you've portrayed as being as far right as one can get, are you? CNN could actually have a "moderate conservative" bias and still look leftist compared to Fox news, if your descriptions of Fox are correct. Is there, instead, a news source you would consider to be truly centrist? That should be the standard against which to compare CNN, should it not? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2004 : 01:16:01 [Permalink]
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Ok.... I concede. I can't even remember what we were talking about to start this off..... rofl! And I was all ready to make some longwinded post about how using a non topic related issue as an example to support your original premises isn't a non-sequitur.....
I will admit that I get a bit irritated by anti American attitudes and that this irritation does effect my objectivity sometimes.
quote:
You're not seriously suggesting that people should compare some other news source to something which you've portrayed as being as far right as one can get, are you? CNN could actually have a "moderate conservative" bias and still look leftist compared to Fox news, if your descriptions of Fox are correct. Is there, instead, a news source you would consider to be truly centrist? That should be the standard against which to compare CNN, should it not?
Point. FOX cannot be used.... despite their claim of "Fair and Balanced" they make other conservative news sources seem liberal in comparison to themselves. A centrist news service? That's a great idea.... I don't know of any unfortunately.
Kil has started another thread on the liberal vs conservative media in the media issues room. http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2850
Perhaps this particular part of this argument can be continued there? I don't think I will have much success in making a case for the reality of liberal media..... but hey . |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2004 : 15:14:47 [Permalink]
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Excellent analysis, Dave!
I can only hope to achieve your level of proficiency in critical analysis. As a matter of fact, Dude was almost starting to make me doubt my English writing skills. It's a good thing you stepped in.
I am always interested in learning more, and having said that, I'd like you to know that I want you to tell me when I goof up. Please let me know if I commit logical fallacies, grammatical errors, or other stuff.
Edited to add: "I'm sure the state of the nation has improved since then..." was indeed meant as sarcasm. As Dude pointed out, the majority of the voters did not vote for G.W. Bush, but that doesn't seem to matter much does it? He is the one in power. And I seriously hope that the majority of the American people realize that when the election day comes. Be sure to remind family and friends and every one you meet to vote for Kerry. I don't know much about him, but he must be better than Bush.
The way Bush foreign policy affects the rest of the world, maybe it's time for us to demand the right to vote for US President too. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/31/2004 15:32:05 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2004 : 16:18:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
The way Bush foreign policy affects the rest of the world, maybe it's time for us to demand the right to vote for US President too.
Bush doesn't have foreign policy.... and that's the problem. Take the lack of any real policy people and combine it with an overabundance of political hacks.... and you have what the Bush admin is. They have a seriously intense machine to get elected, but no fucking clue what to do once they are there. It's like they just decided to get Bush elected, but didn't understand the consequences of achieving the goal.
Also, other nations have some influence on the US. (maybe not with the current president...) The way that other nations act/react to the US is not an insignifigant factor in the decision making process of many Americans when they cast a vote. I'd guess (maybe wrongly) that most Americans are concerned with international relations. And.... some of us even realize that Bush is clueless. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 13:19:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The way that other nations act/react to the US is not an insignifigant factor in the decision making process of many Americans when they cast a vote. I'd guess (maybe wrongly) that most Americans are concerned with international relations. And.... some of us even realize that Bush is clueless.
Even though I swing between being atheist and agnostic, I make an exception and pray to God you are right, and that there are enough of you to make a difference when the day comes. Because I'm getting really and honestly scared! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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