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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2004 : 14:51:33 [Permalink]
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Just got back from seeing it! We loved it.
I wish Moore hadn't been gratuitiously...well, mean, in some of his scenes. And I wish he showed respect for the common people he is supposed to represent.
I'm a political junkie and I read a ton, and Moore had amazing footage and information that even I hadn't heard about. He also tells the story of one mother's journey through the loss of her son in Iraq, which is beautiful and something all Americans need to remember. The movie is heartbreaking in parts and very funny in others.
And if people disagree with his facts, then that's a GOOD thing because at least they're thinking. Mybe some of those right wingers can look it up in their Funk&Wagnall.  |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 02:42:25 [Permalink]
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| $21 mil, weekends top movie. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 15:38:09 [Permalink]
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I really enjoyed this movie although a few parts were irritating like the shots of iraq before the war with smiling children and generally happy people and then the horror of the war. It was just not fair and made it seem like we were bombing Shangri-La which is just not the case.
I also thought his general argument about Saudi Oil-Bush family connections was weak except that these connections may have slowed the later investigation. I didn't quite swallow the huge conspiracy Moore did here.
Moore went all over the map and at times it seemed like he would just go off on a tangent to swipe at Bush any way he could. In that way the movie was not particularly tight. He may have been right much of the time but many of the tangents he went on were different stories and they deserved their own documentaries and in the end diluted whatever it was Moore might have said. By straying so far, so often I think it looked like a political ad much of the time. I am not saying it was a bad movie and that I didn't enjoy much of it but it was so emotional and covered so much that I think it lost focus.
I also think the bit where Moore was trying to get congressmen to get their kids to join the military was ridiculous. It was just a cheap shot and made Moore look bad. This was part of what gives Moore the reputation he has. You have to be over 18 to join the military which makes you an adult. If this is so then these kids decide to join the military and not the congressmen and congresswomen. Sure they could encourage their children to join the military but ultimately it would be the choice of their children. I don't think Moore thought this through all the way. Sure he's right that only one congressman has a child in the military it was wrong to think they could make their children join. Yes there would probably be fewer members of congress wanting to go to war if their kids are in harms way but it is still the choice of their kids. I do wish we had a tradition like the British where the kids feel an obligation to serve but they are born into it so it is a little different.
I did like the part where comments about winning hearts and minds was interspersed with clips of American troops terrorizing an Iraqi family. I also enjoyed the bit where Rumsfield was shown saying we knew exactly where WMD's were and then shots of injured civilians. I feel that this was a story in itself and Moore barely had time to get into that but I think it is important for people to see what really goes on in war and not just the far away explosions we saw on CNN. People get blown apart and while it turns the stomach we should all take a hard look at the damage before we cheer.
I could go on but ya'll can chew on this.
@ |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 20:58:21 [Permalink]
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I think the most important observation in the whole movie was that every company that W headed went down the toilet...
I also think this movie was more focused than any Moore movie I have seen. (I think that is all of them.) Yes, he got sloppy at times but those times were fleeting. There is just so much wrong with Bush, and the media, I could have understood his being all over the place. In fact, I was impressed by how he managed to get back on track most of the time...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 23:43:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
People get blown apart and while it turns the stomach we should all take a hard look at the damage before we cheer.
War is never pretty. People kill and get killed. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 04:09:33 [Permalink]
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I liked the part about the Congressmen. Rangel and others put through a bill to start up the draft to make the same point. If you had to send your children, would you be so quick to endorse war? The bill was not even seriously considered, for a lot of reasons, but that was one.
This was the most focused. Moore was criticized for being the center of attention in the movie. He is the comedian, after all, so one would think that he would be the star. In this movie, he didn't put himself out there a lot. He was more in the background.
Not without faults, certainly, but what movie is? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 06:32:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
I really enjoyed this movie although a few parts were irritating like the shots of iraq before the war with smiling children and generally happy people and then the horror of the war. It was just not fair and made it seem like we were bombing Shangri-La which is just not the case.
I also thought his general argument about Saudi Oil-Bush family connections was weak except that these connections may have slowed the later investigation. I didn't quite swallow the huge conspiracy Moore did here.
Moore went all over the map and at times it seemed like he would just go off on a tangent to swipe at Bush any way he could. In that way the movie was not particularly tight. He may have been right much of the time but many of the tangents he went on were different stories and they deserved their own documentaries and in the end diluted whatever it was Moore might have said. By straying so far, so often I think it looked like a political ad much of the time. I am not saying it was a bad movie and that I didn't enjoy much of it but it was so emotional and covered so much that I think it lost focus.
I also think the bit where Moore was trying to get congressmen to get their kids to join the military was ridiculous. It was just a cheap shot and made Moore look bad. This was part of what gives Moore the reputation he has. You have to be over 18 to join the military which makes you an adult. If this is so then these kids decide to join the military and not the congressmen and congresswomen. Sure they could encourage their children to join the military but ultimately it would be the choice of their children. I don't think Moore thought this through all the way. Sure he's right that only one congressman has a child in the military it was wrong to think they could make their children join. Yes there would probably be fewer members of congress wanting to go to war if their kids are in harms way but it is still the choice of their kids. I do wish we had a tradition like the British where the kids feel an obligation to serve but they are born into it so it is a little different.
I did like the part where comments about winning hearts and minds was interspersed with clips of American troops terrorizing an Iraqi family. I also enjoyed the bit where Rumsfield was shown saying we knew exactly where WMD's were and then shots of injured civilians. I feel that this was a story in itself and Moore barely had time to get into that but I think it is important for people to see what really goes on in war and not just the far away explosions we saw on CNN. People get blown apart and while it turns the stomach we should all take a hard look at the damage before we cheer.
I could go on but ya'll can chew on this.
@
Thanks for the fair review, most people I talk to just hate it or love it based mostly on emotion. I plan to see it this weekend so I won't comment on it too much. I don't have a problem that Moore made the movie, I just don't know why it is called a documentary. From dictionary.com
quote:
doc·u·men·ta·ry [ dòky#601; mént#601;ree ]
noun (plural doc·u·men·ta·ries)
factual movie or TV program: a movie or TV program presenting facts and information, especially about a political, historical, or social issue
Is this a factual movie? From what I hear, I would say no. But again I have not seen it. Should this be called a documentary?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 08:05:43 [Permalink]
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Moore presents plenty of facts but he has lots and lots of spin on those facts. But then what documentary doesn't? Moore is just more honest in his spin than most by making it more obvious perhaps.
@ |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 08:15:25 [Permalink]
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| Newsweek said that the Saudis were interviewed, and they left on after the ban on flights was lifted. Don't know how true that is. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 08:20:28 [Permalink]
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My information tells me that while Ba'ath party was brutal, and most people knew they could not complain about the government, that before the Gulf War, there was no abject poverty, everyone had good health care and women were educated, people even were sent to the states for better education. Life was not perfect, but most people did not suffer. There was poverty, but not the terrible poverty that you see here in the U.S. and certainly not like other Third World countries. Thing would have certainly been better without the U.S. encouraged Iran-Iraq war and the U.S. encouraged Ba'ath party, but life was not terrible.
Now the U.S. is taking credit for fixing some parts of the very things that were destroyed by the brutal wars and the brutal sanctions and the brutal regime which was supported by the U.S. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 08:56:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
factual movie or TV program: a movie or TV program presenting facts and information, especially about a political, historical, or social issue
I cannot remember a documentary film that was not without a bias and without the intention of building a case to present a particular view. I think we could almost start a thread to discuss what is and is not OK in a documentary film. I doubt if there are any "facts" presented in 9/11 that can't be verified. Conclusions based on those facts may be open to interpretation. Every film maker will try and lead us on a journey that supports the film makers conclusions. It would be naive to think otherwise. Moore makes a pretty convincing case for Bush being incompetent and worse. Much of the evidence for that is up on the screen and not all done with clever editing. For example there is the complete reversal of what the pre 9/11 Bush administration thoughts about Iraq's ability to wage war on us. All done with actual footage of their remarks both before and after 9/11. I know this stuff is true because I saw it. I didn't really need Moore to point it out to me. Presenting that reversal in a matter of minutes on the screen has far greater impact for those who don't remember how it all went down. That's the advantage film making has. The past can be presented with the present to great effect.
This is a political documentary. All political documentaries can be called propaganda I suppose, but I submit that if this movie is propaganda than the media is guilty of presenting its own political propaganda and has been doing so every night for the last four years. Longer, I suppose. Spinning the news is exactly that. This is one movie that presents an alternative to what we are being told every day. It is a dissenting view. A view that needs to be heard before an informed opinion can be reached by any of us.
By almost every standard that I can think of, this movie is a documentary... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 09:17:14 [Permalink]
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And here is a refutation of that:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/f911facts/
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Newsweek said that the Saudis were interviewed, and they left on after the ban on flights was lifted. Don't know how true that is.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 10:58:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
quote:
I cannot remember a documentary film that was not without a bias and without the intention of building a case to present a particular view. I think we could almost start a thread to discuss what is and is not OK in a documentary film. I doubt if there are any "facts" presented in 9/11 that can't be verified.
I think this may be more than just bias, some of it may be outright lies according to this article.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124079,00.html |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Topic Locked
