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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2004 : 22:42:20 [Permalink]
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| Finally saw it yesterday and I thought it was excellant. Essentially it's a compilation of BIG QUESTIONS that arn't being asked by mainstream media for whatever fucking reason. The blatant conflicts of interest that Bush Sr, Dick Cheney and GW have in relation to the Saudis and the business associated with the war in Iraq and even Afghanistan is mind boggling. It's corruption to the core. I despised GW and his administration right to the very core of my being - before I saw this film - and this was icing on the cake. This idiot and his monstrous puppet masters have GOT TO GO! They take politics, a profession long fallen from grace in this country, to new lows; indeed to levels I never thought a politician could go and not face legal charges. Unbelievable. |
-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 00:38:30 [Permalink]
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After having seen the movie I have to say it didn't live up to the hype the rightwingers gave it.
It was pretty tame for Moore. No NRA=KKK style accusations.
The part with him riding around the capitol building reading the patriot act over the loudspeaker in an ice cream truck.... pretty funny.
I still don't like Moore, but his movie does raise some valid concerns. It's worth seeing.
The part that really bothered me is one that nobody seems to notice. Moore should have emphasized it alot more I think. G.H.W.Bush was working for the Saudi Bin Laden Group AFTER his stint as president. As a high level advisor. Any former president of the US has the right to recieve the daily CIA breifing, G.H.W.Bush gets them daily. (some presidents don't bother). So... W's daddy is advising the Bin Laden group, and he has access to some of the USA's most secret and sensitive info on a daily basis. And we know for a fact that Saudi Arabia has been giving money to Al Qaeda through fake charities, and we know for a fact that Osama has contact with some of his family....
As far as context goes, the only thing that was really out of context was the part with W on the golf course. That was shot in 2002, he was talking about some suicide bombers in Israel and responding to a question about that attack to the reporter. Moore seems to set it up so in the movie it implies W made the comments soon after 9/11, and was referring to the 9/11 terrorists.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A43789-2002Aug4?language=printer |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 00:53:45 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote:quote:
Any former president of the US has the right to recieve the daily CIA breifing...
If true, this is scary as hell. The most-basic level of classification is "need to know." What possible "need to know" does any former President have to the daily CIA briefing? None that I can see. After they're out of Office, they're just another Joe Citizen (albeit with Secret Service protection for what, 10 years?). If John Doe doesn't get the CIA briefings, then an ex-President shouldn't, either.
And people wonder how folks like Bob Hansen can rise to their positions while selling State secrets. Sheesh! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 12:50:43 [Permalink]
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If it were not true, I think the Bush camp would have been speaking out in the media about it, as Moore states it pretty clearly in the movie. To me it's a serious accusation. One that would require a response if untrue.
Unless they think the everage citizen is to stupid to comprehend the idea that nobody who is advising foreign interests should have access to the CIA daily breifing.... |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 13:31:13 [Permalink]
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A little off track here, but the movie is due to open here in Australia on the 29th of July....
It will be interesting to see what affect it has on the polls here, as there is much debate on the alliance that we have with America.
With an election due down here in the next few months, the American alliance is a key election issue. Many are critical of our Prime Ministers blind faith in the current administration. This movie may show some that are unaware the folly of current events. Although our media (the part not owned by Murdoch anyway) has not been frightened of asking some pretty tough questions of our leaders. It's unfortunate the tabloid style of journalism favoured by the Murdoch empire is by far the most popular (in print and on television)
It is an eagerly anticipated movie. Unfortunately, “America Bashing” is quite a popular pastime down here in our little backwater right at this moment.
Your current foreign policy ain't to popular with many of your allies right at this moment.
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 15:52:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Your current foreign policy ain't to popular with many of your allies right at this moment.
It's not real popular at home either.... it's amazing to me that the polls show Kerry and Bush so even. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 06:17:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Your current foreign policy ain't to popular with many of your allies right at this moment.
It's not real popular at home either.... it's amazing to me that the polls show Kerry and Bush so even.
No kidding. I keep asking myself WTF is wrong with people around here.... |
-Chaloobi
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 06:22:19 [Permalink]
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| I can't wait to see it (im going on Sunday to watch it). |
"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now" |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 18:09:43 [Permalink]
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I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 this past weekend (when it finally came to a theater near my home). It was hilarious! The only problem I have with most movies is caused by the loud sound tracks. I had kleenix stuffed in my ears and it did not help very much. The soundtrack was still much too loud. I guess most movie patrons have lost a good portion of their hearing, and those of us who haven't been listening to loud music have problems with it.
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2004 : 07:19:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ljbrs
I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 this past weekend (when it finally came to a theater near my home). It was hilarious! The only problem I have with most movies is caused by the loud sound tracks. I had kleenix stuffed in my ears and it did not help very much. The soundtrack was still much too loud. I guess most movie patrons have lost a good portion of their hearing, and those of us who haven't been listening to loud music have problems with it.
ljbrs
It's your theatre, not the movie. They have the volume on their sound system up to high. |
-Chaloobi
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Les
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 13:20:14 [Permalink]
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I plan to rent the movie and I'm sure I'll enjoy it and probably laugh my ass off, because that's what Michael Moore does to me. But I also like to know as much as I can about the strength or weaknesses of his arguments (he is, after all, a notoriously lazy and sloppy son of a bitch).
This is a review by a site that critically examines claims on both the right and the left. Their first and recently released book is an analysis of the Bush administration's constant dishonesty. I much prefer their criticisms of the left over those of, say, The Weekly Standard, because unlike predictably partisan sources, they're not entirely full of shit. Though some points in the article are a little "nit-picky" (especially in regards to the Saudi flights out of the country, where dates matter not as much as why the hell they got any special treatment at all) they also point out problems with Moore's more overreaching allegations and suggestions.
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20040702.html |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 14:59:08 [Permalink]
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| I heard Moore was offering, or thinking of offering, a $10,000 reward for factual found errors in his film. Not sure if it's true or not though. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Les
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 15:33:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I heard Moore was offering, or thinking of offering, a $10,000 reward for factual found errors in his film. Not sure if it's true or not though.
Even if it's true, I think it's a little disingenuous. For instance, if you say that there was a Unocal plan to build an oil pipeline through Afghanistan and that Bush had friends and associates in Unocal (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), but then you don't mention that Unocal killed the plan in '98, you haven't put forth a factual error. But you have mislead your audience. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 16:00:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
but then you don't mention that Unocal killed the plan in '98, you haven't put forth a factual error. But you have mislead your audience.
I think you miss the point. Now is a perfect time for Unocal to revive the plan.
@ |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Les
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 18:11:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
quote:
but then you don't mention that Unocal killed the plan in '98, you haven't put forth a factual error. But you have mislead your audience.
I think you miss the point. Now is a perfect time for Unocal to revive the plan.
@
I think they probably would have done that in the two and a half years since the invasion. But there's no evidence that they have plans to revive the project. As a matter of fact, the government of Afghanistan did make agreements with other companies to explore the possibility of such a pipeline, none of whom have anything to do with Bush and his cronies. Of course, Moore didn't mention that. He implied that Unocal was the reason we invaded Afghanistan. If he had bothered to mention the fact that Unocal hasn't expressed any interest in the pipeline since '98, his assertion would have been weakened.
Should we base our conclusions on half-truths and possible behavior or whole truths and known behavior? I opt for the latter. |
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