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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2004 : 22:29:54
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I am very disappointed to get on here for the first time in a while, and se nothing at all , about, Ronald Reagan's recent death.
Even though I was alive for only seven months of his time in office, I have looked back and realised that he is very possibly the greatest president ever, and certainly the best since Abraham Lincoln. No dis-respect to the many presidents who have done great things since then, but I believe Reagan tops them all. From the way he nearly single handedly brought down communism, to his good natured one liners, I only wish I could have been alive for his presidency.
I have chosen to choose my favorites out of his many famous lines--
After he was shot-- "Honey, I forgot to duck."
In the hospital-- "I hope your all Republicans."
At the 1984 debate-- "I refuse to let age become an issue in this race; I will not for political purposes, highlight my opponent's youth and inexpierience"
And my personal favorite....While testing a microphone-- " My fellow Americans, I have just signed a legislation, that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."
I know you have all heard these before, but I felt it appropriate to highlight them again.
Moved to General Discussion - Dave W.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 07:30:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
<snip>I have looked back and realised that he is very possibly the greatest president ever, and certainly the best since Abraham Lincoln. <snip>
You greatly over estimate his importance. |
-Chaloobi
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 07:41:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Even though I was alive for only seven months of his time in office, I have looked back and realised that he is very possibly the greatest president ever, and certainly the best since Abraham Lincoln. No dis-respect to the many presidents who have done great things since then, but I believe Reagan tops them all. From the way he nearly single handedly brought down communism, to his good natured one liners, I only wish I could have been alive for his presidency.
Just curious, but I wonder how you arrived at the conclusion that Reagan was the greatest President since Lincoln. I was barely a teen-ager when he left office and continue to have trouble trying to fit him into history. (Perhaps it's too soon still!)
So you mentioned bringing down Communism as one point in his favor (leaving aside, I imagine, the various states in east Asia and the Caribbean which are still Communist (or, in China's case, pseudo-Communist)), but I think it's a bit dishonest to say that Reagan did it "single-handedly." No doubt other factors played a part. (Some have suggested that the very wieght of the system would have forced massive changed in the USSR's economy/political system regardless.) But what other things lead you to think he "tops them all"? How do you fit in some of the problems of his administration-- e.g. the fiscal blunders, Iran-Contra, the willing ignorance of the AIDS epidemic, etc.?
Or have you let the right-wing media feed you their Reagan-worship and examined his presidency (as they do) in a completely uncritical fashion?
(edited because I used the word "still" too many times in a paragraph) |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/09/2004 08:11:07 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 08:27:26 [Permalink]
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| If one liners mattered, perhaps Groucho would have made a fine president.... Fact is, if you have ever seen "Duck Soup" you might have a pretty good handle on foreign policy during the Reagan years. Maybe someone should write a screenplay called "Dutch Soup." |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 08:44:33 [Permalink]
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With what I have seen in the press about Reagan the past few days I can't help but remember how the press treated Nixon after his death. When he died the press nearly forgave all of Nixon's sins, which were many, and gave him a lot of undeserved respect.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 10:01:17 [Permalink]
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Reagan was a charismatic leader, he was easily likable, and he was able to charm people in a way that is very rare.
However, I don't think you could say he is the greatest president since Lincoln.... I can name two that very easily overshadow Reagan... without even cracking a history book. FDR and JFK.
While it's unfair to ignore Reagan's contribution to what we call our victory in the cold war, what he really did was accelerate an already doomed system. The USSR would never have been able to sustain itself, we just came along at an opportune moment and gave them a little nudge.
So... in terms of greatness.... what exactly did Reagan do to advance humanity? What did he do that was greater than the accomplishments of FDR and JFK? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 11:25:40 [Permalink]
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I was… well let's just say I was a working adult during the Reagan era. I've seen the changes first hand that the working class has had to endure as a result of his policies. And I know very few people who think that the changes improved their lives. Like now those were tough times for a lot of people.
As for Reagan ending the cold war if you give him credit then you should give Harry S. Truman, a Democrat even more credit. After all, Truman was the one who first set up the policy of containment, remember Korea. And if you want to talk about defense I think M.A.D, (mutually assured destruction) was initially implemented during the Truman presidency to help keep the Soviet Union in its place.
And as was said earlier the Soviet Union was teetering on the edge before Reagan took office and it was considered only a matter of time before they collapsed. In the eighties there was also a little thing the Soviets were involved with in Afghanistan. That war cost them billions of dollars and thousands of lives and in the opinion of many I remember reading at the time did more to bring down the Soviet Union than any Reagan policy.
The only thing Reagan did do was to take responsibility for the Iran Contra affair, something G. W. Bush would never have done. Of course that's easy to do when the investigating committee promises at the outset not to seek or recommend impeachment proceeding no matter what they find.
It really makes me sick to hear all the glowing tributes to Reagan. You'd almost think he was the Second Coming and about the only thing they haven't given him credit for is the creation of the universe. Though even that could change before he's buried.
As you can see I'm no fan of Ronald Reagan and I could go on a lot longer ranting about all his faults but I'll spare you any more diatribes.
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 11:31:19 [Permalink]
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| To be fair to Nixon he did some good things as President. Two excellant examples include creation of the EPA and restoration of diplomacy with China. |
-Chaloobi
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 12:22:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
To be fair to Nixon he did some good things as President. Two excellant examples include creation of the EPA and restoration of diplomacy with China.
I'd say the negatives outweigh the positives quite a bit. Here's a man that promised to end the Vietnam war when he campaigned yet when he resigned we still had troops there and had broadened the war to Cambodia. His choice of a personal friend to be the Chairmen of the Federal Reserve led to some of the biggest blunders the Fed has ever seen which led to runaway inflation later in the 70's and early 80's. I could go on and on and on.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 13:40:04 [Permalink]
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Dude-- I almost said the best since FDR, and maybe should have because, FDR did amzing things with the war.
But JFK does not fit into this group. JFK would have been a very forgettable president, if he had not been shot. Because he was shot, his family and his presidency, got much publicity. He really did'nt do anything to change the world.
"if one liners mattered, perhaps Groucho would have made a fine president.... Fact is, if you have ever seen "Duck Soup" you might have a pretty good handle on foreign policy during the Reagan years. Maybe someone should write a screenplay called "Dutch Soup." [/quote]
The one liners themselves don't make a good president, but likability(i totally spelled that wrong) through these one-liners, does make a difference. Being the kind of person who people immedietly trust, does make a difference. I think to the consolling(also spelled wrong) words after the space shuttle blew up. He was not only funny, but he was a gifted speaker, who could make people feel secure.
"so you mentioned bringing down Communism as one point in his favor (leaving aside, I imagine, the various states in east Asia and the Caribbean which are still Communist (or, in China's case, pseudo-Communist))"
Reagan only had 8 years. He did what we had been trying to do for many years. That's take out the USSR.
"Or have you let the right-wing media feed you their Reagan-worship and examined his presidency (as they do) in a completely uncritical fashion?"
All these thought's were in place before his death.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 21:19:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
But JFK does not fit into this group. JFK would have been a very forgettable president, if he had not been shot. Because he was shot, his family and his presidency, got much publicity. He really did'nt do anything to change the world.
Hmmm. He presided over some pretty important times. Civil Rights, for one. And wasn't it he who issued the challenge to put men on the moon? And he fought Communists, too, I think. But in Cuba, right?
I'm not a historian of mondern America so I have to take my cues from what I read. And then, I have to take the time to do the reading-- something I've not yet done. So I reserve judgement, but suspect that Kennedy had a greater impact than you suggest.
Regarding Communism and Russia, you wrote:
quote:
Reagan only had 8 years. He did what we had been trying to do for many years. That's take out the USSR.
But this doesn't really address the issue I (and countless other before me) have raised: was the eventual fall of the USSR a direct result of Reagan's policies, or was it doomed to fail because of its own problems? More likely, it's a combination of the two. But I (and I guess you) am in no position to say exactly how great an impact Reagan had on it all.
You also wrote, regarding my suggestion that you may have fallen prey to some of the Reagan-worshipping put forward ad nauseum by the right-wing media:
quote:
All these thought's (sic) were in place before his death.
As though the virtual Reagan cult spouted by Rush and Hannity and Ann Coulter and Cal Thomas and the other right-wingers just now started. Of course you have had "all these thoughts" (the apostrophe shows possession; for plurality (i.e. more than one thought) just add an 's') before his death-- you were only born in the last year of his administration! By the time you were paying attention to such things, the man had practically been deified!
Look back at your research on Reagan and see how the material you used treats things like his tax cuts (and subsequent hikes), or the debacle that was SDI, or the Iran-Contra affair. How can you-- who, again, weren't even alive for but seven months of his Presidency-- write that he was "the kind of person who people immedietly trust"? This obviously wasn't because you were there, so where did you get your information? Fox News? Or one of those fawning Reagan biographies that came out in the last few years? One wonders.
Again: I was honestly too young myself to have understood all of Reagan's actions in real-time, so I'm forced to look at what's been written since then. And unfortunately, I simply don't have the time or, at present, the desire, to look into it. But from everything I've gathered, it's difficult to suggest that the man was among the greatest Presidents since Lincoln (or FDR). |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 22:26:05 [Permalink]
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I guess if Reagan is the mastermind behind the fall of communism then Clinton is as, if not more worthy of the title of genius behind the rise of Russian democracy. if all you need to be is "in office" at the time of an event then Clinton is probably also responsible for the information age. Hell Clinton balanced the budget single handedly! This man commands almost godlike powers that Reagan only had in the wettest of wet dreams and Reagan campaigned against Carter saying he would do it. Perhaps this was Reagans greatest failure among many but thankfully Clinton and his odd way of doing what he said he would. Surely Clinton is the greatest president of them all!
Surely the Reagan admirers that lowered the bar can even so this.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 02:18:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I am very disappointed to get on here for the first time in a while, and see nothing at all, about, Ronald Reagan's recent death. Even though I was alive for only seven months of his time in office, I have looked back and realized that he is very possibly the greatest president ever, and certainly the best since Abraham Lincoln...[/i]
I was a young adult, 21 years old when Ronald Reagan was in office. In reality Ronald Reagan was an ineffectual figurehead president. The type of "leader" highly favored by the Republican Party. A figurehead PR man who makes witty remarks while the country is actually run my large corporations and elite contributors. As an actor, he was certainly much better at playing the role of Commander and Chief than George Bush is. But he really was a very weak President. I'm sorry he had Alzheimer's - nobody deserves that.
As for the fall of communism, someone once said: "Giving Reagan credit for the collapse of the Soviet Union is like giving the rooster credit for the sun coming up." It happened on his watch, but it would have happened under anyone's administration at that time. There is absolutely no comparison at all to Abraham Lincoln.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 03:19:15 [Permalink]
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Ronnie 'Raygun' Reagan was the first pres I voted for. As a young man, I bought into the appeal of the 'young Republicans'. Fortunately, I recognized the deficiencies of the new Republican Party's fiscal policies before term two. (Naively however, I had begun to drift toward the free market magic and social liberalism of the Libertarian Party. In '84, I dumped Reagan for the Libertarian candidate, Bergland, I think.) What I was seeing was a nation increasing it's national debt,a rapidly expanding trade deficit, exporting manufacturing jobs, and increasing overall federal spending while cutting aid to the poor and the infirmed.
Nothing's changed since. We just say things like "the national debt doesn't matter," and "outsourcing American jobs is good for trade." Perhaps, this is why I've been drifting a little further left all of my adult life.
Anyway, how can we forget the Reagan Administration? Can we forget the appearance of thousands of homeless people on our streets in both big citiies and in small towns alike?
Can we forget the cuts to education?
I further have a hard time forgetting about some other Reagan Administration high water marks. I remember names like North, Poindexter, McFarland, BCCI, Iran, tow missiles, American hostages, Hizbollah, Contra Rebels and Central American Death Squads. Oh, and since we're in Central America, let's not forget about American Intelligence organizations and cocaine smuggling. What a way to begin the War on Drugs!
Most of all, let's not forget about 242 dead marines in Beirut. Did Ronnie Raygun ever bring the attackers to justice? Did Mr. Reagan set a good example for terrorists by puuling US forces out of Lebanon?
Does anyone remember the great environmental reforms led by Mr. Reagan and James Watt?
There was some humor from the Reagan days, though. I really enjoyed the Ed Meese war against porn--Censorship and the politics of personal attack at it's best. Reincarnation was proven real! Anthony Comstock walked again!
But, for real laughs, can we forget the appearance of the Presidential Astrologer? What a way to start the fay off--Astrology and an intelligence briefing!
Finally, I remember the wonderful tax cuts that required the two largest tax increases in history by the next two administrations to get the budget back in balance.
Any votes for a new face on Mount Rushmore? Why not piss the Lakhota Sioux off one more time?
As for the USSR...We shouldn't forget that Reagan and the Dems in Congress was getting real close to spending us into financial ruin. Fortunately, the Soviets had a worse problem with bureacracy than we did. They also had a reformer in charge named Mikhail Gorbachev.
We also shouldn't forget that the doomsday clock reached something like three minutes before midnight. Gawd! Those were heady days. I miss the Eighties almost as much as I miss my Chia pet!
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 04:54:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
As for the fall of communism, someone once said: "Giving Reagan credit for the collapse of the Soviet Union is like giving the rooster credit for the sun coming up."
Reagan cannot be credited at all for the fall of Soviet communism, but he is accountable for the bad things that happend in this country during his time in office. I bet the same people who think this, think Bush is responsible for the treatment of the Iraq prisoners. Are presidents responsible for everything that happens or not?
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