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Aodoi
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
 Posted - 08/17/2001 : 07:39:11 [Permalink]
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LOL, the Hitchhikers theory of Vice Presidents? There whole point being to distract the public from what's really going on? :D I like it!
Anyway, since this is a board dedicated to skepticism I suppose I should throw out that limiting choices to 2 when more are present is a logical fallacy. So, are you all still beating your wives (husbands/SOs/small woodland animals...)? ;)
Anyway, while it's easy to call the president a moron, his real problem is that he's a lousy public speaker. I disagreed with Clinton pretty often, but you never thought he was an idiot since he's so eloquent. Bush sounds like he's got some kind of speech impediment. So when he does something you disagree with, the immediate response is "he's an idiot."
Anyway, I'm kinda rambling... I just figured somebody should mention that public speaking inability and political decisions do not stupidity make. On the plus side (for Bush), as long as people are making fun of him for being an idiot, he can pretty well get away with anything... nobody would believe it was intentional. ;)
Oh, and I figured I should add this: http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/08/16/garrett.otsc/index.html
It's an article on the social security sleight of hand that inspired the thread.
Edited by - Aodoi on 08/17/2001 07:56:37 |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 07:59:15 [Permalink]
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Of course it's the Hitchhikers Theory! I read the book while I was in High School. Then, many many years later, Quayle treated us to his wacky antics. Badda-bing! I thought. This is true and can actually work. Clinton would have been in much better shape if Gore would have been enough of a sport as to fall down the Capitol steps once in a while. The whole bit with Tipper and the PMRC? Weak, very weak.
BTW, saw Al on the news the other day. Is it just me, or is he trying to look like Commander Riker?
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 10:28:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
What I disliked about Mr Clinton is his lack of morals and his disregard for telling the truth.
Fair enough, but real honesty requires that Dubya be held to the same standard.
Certainly. When I find out that Mr Bush has been adulterous and has lied to all of us about it (including committing perjury), I will hold him to the same standard. So far, though, about all that any unprejudiced party has been able to find is the fact that he's of approximately average intelligence.quote:
You have to call a spade a spade and Dubya is a spade 
I'm confused...exactly what are the components of his spadocity? In what way is his spadishness causing discord? Why is his spaditude a problem for you?
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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Aodoi
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 10:34:33 [Permalink]
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Since my last post was the height of poor writing... or the depth... whatever, I shall be brief.
If one is to call a spade a spade, then shouldn't we call Bush a homo sapien? I'm pretty sure he's neither a shovel nor a card game.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 10:53:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
quote:
What I disliked about Mr Clinton is his lack of morals and his disregard for telling the truth.
Fair enough, but real honesty requires that Dubya be held to the same standard.
Certainly. When I find out that Mr Bush has been adulterous and has lied to all of us about it (including committing perjury), I will hold him to the same standard. So far, though, about all that any unprejudiced party has been able to find is the fact that he's of approximately average intelligence.quote:
You have to call a spade a spade and Dubya is a spade
I'm confused...exactly what are the components of his spadocity? In what way is his spadishness causing discord? Why is his spaditude a problem for you?
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead."
While I do not approve of Clinton's adultery, I do not believe that he should have been asked the question at all. We have not asked this question of any other sitting President. Yet most of them had adulterous affairs. I.E. Kennedy, F. D. Roosevelt. None have been asked these questions. Why? Because it did not matter to the running of the country. President Bush Jr attempts to push through international matters when he does not have backing of the international community. I am deeply concerned about the way he conducts foreign policy. It's why I didn't vote for him. His environmental policies are atrocious. (Oil exploration in the Artic) His administration is beginning to look like the Reagan era. That (Regan era) economic package didn't work either. IMHO, he got the job due to name recognition and Ralph Nader. We would have been much better off with Jeb Bush or Elizabeth Dole. Another favorite of mine was Alan Keyes. I didn't agree with everything Keyes said, but at least you knew where you stood with him.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 11:05:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm confused...exactly what are the components of his spadocity? In what way is his spadishness causing discord? Why is his spaditude a problem for you?
He has lied to two groups now. He is not going to sign the Kyoto treaty. He promised to. I'd call that a lie. He promised to cut stem cell research. He didn't. There's another lie. I also feel that not representing the nation that elected you and instead look after those with the money is extremely immoral. Clinton's lie was nothing to me. It was none of our business and he was forced into it for reasons that had nothing to do with anything. I could care less about that. There are real, important issues to worry about put there. That perjury business was not one of them.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 11:51:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
He has lied to two groups now. He is not going to sign the Kyoto treaty. He promised to. I'd call that a lie. He promised to cut stem cell research. He didn't
I don't know about the stem cell research issue, so I'll not comment on that.
But when did he promise to sign Kyoto? If he did, then the problem was that he made the promise in the first place, not that he reneged. The U.S. Senate UNANIMOUSLY rejected Kyoto in 1997 and Clinton-Gore never asked them to vote again for ratification.
My kids still love me.
Edited by - Garrette on 08/17/2001 11:52:32 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 12:00:17 [Permalink]
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But do you deny that Bush lied?
The problem with Clinton lying was that he should not have been asked in the first place. Anyone would have lied if they were in his place and if anyone says different, I will call them a liar
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 12:35:56 [Permalink]
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I don't know if he lied. I don't know of him promising to sign Kyoto. Maybe he did, but it seems out of place for him. Can you point me to when/where he did? (This is not a challenge, btw; I honestly don't know if he promised to or not).
My kids still love me. |
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Aodoi
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 12:48:31 [Permalink]
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My impression is that Bush compromised on stem cells... I'm not sure that he had actually promised to ban them. Trying to keep the support of the religious right he might have banned them, but frankly I wouldn't mind if the religious right never had any say in government at all, so I'm hardly gonna blast the guy over not following their lead.
I'm pretty sure that he never promised to sign Kyoto... that would certainly have been foolhardy as he couldn't sign it without Congress ratifying it (as mentioned). From what I understand (and it's been a while) at one point in a speech on the campaign trail he mentioned CO2 as a pollutant, which I suppose could be construed as support for Kyoto. I wouldn't take it that way, but others might.
It's all just politics.
Edited by - Aodoi on 08/17/2001 12:49:05 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 13:02:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
But do you deny that Bush lied?
The problem with Clinton lying was that he should not have been asked in the first place. Anyone would have lied if they were in his place and if anyone says different, I will call them a liar
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
I don't agree. I would not have lied. I would, however, have told them it was an improper question and I refuse to answer it. Even to the point of going to jail for contempt. BTW, can anyone tell me why the Starr report which was supposed to be about the Whitewater investment only contains the words "Whitewater" twice but contains the words "oral sex" over 150 times? What does a hummer in the oval office have to do with a land deal in Arkansas?
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 14:48:38 [Permalink]
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I'm constantly amazed at the double standard regarding Clinton and his dalliances in the White House. He should have been tarred and feathered by the NOW, but of course, they aren't for women's rights, they are a political organization...
An male executive has an affair, and he's fired, sued for millions, and demonized in the media. The freakin' President is getting freakin' blow jobs in the Oval freakin' Office by a freakin' intern, while Heads of State are on the phone, or waiting out in the Rose Garden, and people couldn't care less. The potential for blackmail is horrifying. Clinton was willing to bomb and murder innocent foreigners in their own country simply to distract from his current political hijinks, but it's "just about sex, who cares? He can play the saxaphone!" 
@tomic, you said you don't think he should have been asked in the first place? Do you know the context of why he was asked? Remember Paula Jones? I don't care what you think about her, she had a valid case in which the question of Clinton's sexual behavior was completely and necessarily valid.
The guy's a disgusting, womanizing, most likely rapist, liar, who doesn't care about the country or it's people, just about his own career, who should be thrown in jail, regardless of how talented a politician he is. (I can't believe anyone would call someone a 'talented politician' as anything more than an insult).
He obviously would have done anything to protect his own interests. Why anyone would want someone like this making decisions that affect their lives and prosperity, it totally and completely incomprehensable to me.
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 16:52:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
He has lied to two groups now. He is not going to sign the Kyoto treaty. He promised to. I'd call that a lie. He promised to cut stem cell research. He didn't. There's another lie. ...Clinton's lie was nothing to me. It was none of our business and he was forced into it for reasons that had nothing to do with anything. I could care less about that. There are real, important issues to worry about put there. That perjury business was not one of them.
Let me get this straight.
Changing your position on a complex opinion-riddled issue, after doing more research and/or receiving further advice and collecting evidence about the opinions/beliefs of your constituency, is not OK.
But blatantly and repeatedly perjuring yourself, while under oath, about factual events, in response to a question that you don't like, is OK?
Interesting, @tomic...I don't think I can agree.
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 17:23:44 [Permalink]
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Yeah I remember Paula Jones. If she had such a valid case then why didn't anything come of it? Is it perhaps because it was not a valid case? Hmmm? It's your opinion it was a valid case. Valid cases usually go to trial. That one never will. So much for valid.
As for the rest. I just don't think it's fair. Yes it all happened in the White House. That's where he lived. What was he supposed to do, go into a bar with 15 or so Secret Service agents? I don't really care anyway. it's a non-issue to me. I have more important things to worry about.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2001 : 17:41:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yeah I remember Paula Jones. If she had such a valid case then why didn't anything come of it? Is it perhaps because it was not a valid case? Hmmm? It's your opinion it was a valid case. Valid cases usually go to trial. That one never will. So much for valid.
Sorry, but this is totally irrelavent in the context of what was actually happening at the time. You can't use hindsight to make judgements about the validity of a case while it was going on.
A woman had a charge, and at least one credible witness (a state trooper), claiming that the then governor of the state of Arkansas dropped his pants, and told her to "kiss it", implying this would be good for her career. She even claimed that she could identify 'distinquishing characteristics' that only one who had seen his naughty bits would know.
In light of these circumstances, at the time the charges were presented, asking about all the alledged affairs of this nymphomaniac person with power over countless women is the epitome of a valid question.
Your opinions in light of the final outcome have no bearing on this.
quote:
As for the rest. I just don't think it's fair. Yes it all happened in the White House. That's where he lived. What was he supposed to do, go into a bar with 15 or so Secret Service agents?
He was supposed to remain faithful to his wife, and not abuse his power by having affairs with young interns!!!
quote:
I don't really care anyway. it's a non-issue to me. I have more important things to worry about.
So trust, honor, integrity, and character hold absolutely no value to you, not even in the most powerful man in the world. Lovely... 
[Sorry for sounding so harsh. I feel very strongly about this, and my outrage is hard to contain. Still friends? ]
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Ma gavte la nata!
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/17/2001 17:45:23 |
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