|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2004 : 10:47:13 [Permalink]
|
| Well, that's what they get for letting lay people teach religion class. And so here we are again with the big contradiction: What kind of God condemns people to eternal torture? Not the kind that I would describe as 'all loving, all forgiving and all compassionate.' |
-Chaloobi
|
| Edited by - chaloobi on 06/17/2004 10:53:15 |
 |
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2004 : 10:52:20 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Doesn't matter if it's the "best thing I've ever experienced" if it's so far outside my experience that it is indescribable.
Sure it matters. If I say "you get what's in the box, which is so different you would never understand it 'til you get it" and don't tell you how wonderful it is, you're a lot less likely to choose it. But if I use the term "indescribably wonderful," isn't that just oh so much more enticing? It's all in how you spin it. |
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 17:43:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The premise here is, of course, that humans are the only creatures who have been granted "Free Will," and so it would follow that Lucifer was created by God with God's intent that Lucifer reject Him, since he didn't have the ability to choose to do so. Makes blaming Satan for temptation a little disingenuous, don't it?
God had a plan for everyone!!! Either good or evil. Lucifer didn't start out bad. He was blinded by his own beuty and he tryed to rise above the God of Heaven...
ISA 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
ISA 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
ISA 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground,which didst weaken the nations!
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,and [the satan] came also among them."
So I think God tolerated this rebellion and bore long with Lucifer, and rather than destroying him, allowed his rebellion to fester. Until 1/3 of the angels went with Satan...God is not a creation, Satan, his host and humans now know both good and evil, just like God.
and the sin of pride entered him 1 Timothy Ch.3v6
This said to Jesus "If you are the Son of God." and " If you will bow down and worship me" I will give you all the kingdoms of the world, Matthew Ch.4v3-11
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and should be tormented day and night forever and ever". Isaiah Ch.14v15-17 says, "Yet thou should be brought down to hell, in the sides of the pit. They that see thee will narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroy the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners"?
"Let no man deceive you by any means; for except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin (Satan) be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." ( II Thess. 2:3-4)
His only goal is to bring worship to himself and away from God, and to take your soul away from God so he can rebel in the fact he took another human from God the Father!!!
|
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 21:52:42 [Permalink]
|
verlch wrote:quote:
God had a plan for everyone!!! Either good or evil.
Okay, so "Free Will" is a lie, then.quote:
Lucifer didn't start out bad.
Where in the Bible does it say that he was granted "Free Will" like man was? If Lucifer (aka Satan) didn't have Free Will, then all of his actions were (and still are!) predetermined by God Himself. In other words, every time Satan tempts man away from God, it is actually God's will that he do so. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 23:22:53 [Permalink]
|
| Your wasting your time Dave.... verlch is never going to be able to grasp the basic inconsitency there. If he could, then it might be worthwhile to point out the paradox of an omnipotent/omnicient creator and free will.... |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 00:07:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
In other words, every time Satan tempts man away from God, it is actually God's will that he do so.
Sure God knows the outcome, but I think he is allowing rebellion to take place so the universe knows that if you don't follow God and do His will, this is the result. Sin and degradation!
I am sure God didn't want it to happen, and maybe no matter what God did it might have happened in one form or another.
There was a plan before the earth was ever made that God would send Jesus to die if we fell into rebellion with the Devil.
I think God was going to create Lucfier no matter what!! Lucifer was jealous of Jesus status with God, He was guilty of the sin of pride!! He told the other angels that Gods laws are too strict, and that they needed to live outside the commandments of God, more freedom! Well God the Father got sick of it, there was war in heaven.
"beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:17-18).
7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
4: And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
|
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 12:01:09 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
verlch wrote:quote:
God had a plan for everyone!!! Either good or evil.
Okay, so "Free Will" is a lie, then.quote:
Lucifer didn't start out bad.
Where in the Bible does it say that he was granted "Free Will" like man was? If Lucifer (aka Satan) didn't have Free Will, then all of his actions were (and still are!) predetermined by God Himself. In other words, every time Satan tempts man away from God, it is actually God's will that he do so.
Hmmmm.....In my experience with Catholic education, Free Will is key to God's plan. This is why you never see any incontrovertible evidence for God - He knows that if He reveals Himself to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, then everyone will obey whatever it is He demands without question, effectively negating Free Will. But because God wants us to CHOOSE the right path in our lives - to Learn why we should do the right thing rather than just obeying - God hides and only gives hints and clues that He's really there. This is why Faith - the belief that God is really there even though there's no evidence for it at all - is so Key to religion. See how nice that works out? Without Free Will, there is no reason to have Faith. And without a reason to have Faith, there's no explanation for why you never see God. So God MUST desire Free Will or you are free to recognize that He doesn't exist based on the evidence that's so obviously in front of us all. I feel dizzy.
|
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 11:21:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
What kind of God condemns people to eternal torture?
I don't think it is eternal torture, but eternal seperation from God...for choosing evil instead of good.
I think the whole thing of eternal torture was just so bible thumper preaching the word to anybody that will listen, got made fun of and retailiated and said, yeah well if you don't go to heaven you will go to hell and be tortured for eternity!! Corrupt churchs found if they told people eternal torture was coming from following the devil it scared people into service for God! Thus doing the uncreated God a huge diservice! As you can see the outcome of it today as people are mad at God for this, when there is no proof of eternal torture, only Satan and the Anti Christ and the beast will be tortured for eternity!!! Satan uses that to inflate his numbers to come with him to doom... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 11:32:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
<snip>I don't think it is eternal torture, but eternal seperation from God...for choosing evil instead of good. <snip>
Yes, this is what I was taught in Catholic highschool. Satan presiding over his own personal torture empire (apparently with the full approval of God) waiting and hoping, rubbing his hands with anticipation, for you and I to trip up one too many times, is regarded as fiction.
I posted this belief somewhere around here and Dave W - the smartass - comes along and posts official dogma from the Vatican web site saying that yes, hellfire and damnation are real. Oh well. Thanks for ruining that for me Dave. Now I have to go back to looking over my shoulder every time I get a chill up my spine.  |
-Chaloobi
|
| Edited by - chaloobi on 06/24/2004 11:36:39 |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 20:16:36 [Permalink]
|
verlch, all the stuff you quoted from Revelation happens after the Seven Seals have been broken and the four beasts ride out. All the men of the Earth are hiding in dark caves by the time the war in Heaven occurs. In other words, according to Revelation, Satan has not yet been cast out of Heaven.
Beyond that, none of what you quoted provides any evidence that the Devil was granted Free Will by God, or debunks my conclusion that Satan was created by God in order to rebel.
And yes, Hell is "eternal torment," not necessarily eternal torture. Care to argue the semantics of that difference?
And even though Hell is allegedly real, according to the Catholics, they also maintain that the primary punishment in Hell is eternal separation from God, which gets us back to the point of all this...
Once you're in Hell, there's no Free Will anymore. You cannot repent after getting a taste of Hell. It is eternal.
And I could go into my rant about how that makes God a crappy father-figure, but I'll leave it alone tonight.
Chaloobi wrote:quote:
...Dave W - the smartass...
Much better than "dumbass," thank you very much.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:21:12 [Permalink]
|
Every one of you are stating some valid points. Almost as if we were all existentialists (which is sometimes the nicest philosophy to go by but not one I attribute to myself)...
I'd have to agree with a few points already posted. If there WERE a heaven, hypothetically speaking, I don't think we'd do games, play instruments, etc, etc, I'd believe it to be more Eastern thought, just feeling whole with the universe, feeling ecstasy, etc, etc. I don't think we'd have to compare one with something else, for in heaven, all would be one, bad and good as one, not just good.
I'd take the box with a slight bugging of curiousity. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
|
|
|
|
satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:26:54 [Permalink]
|
| I'm sorry. I don't think that made any sense. Feel free to disregard this posting tonight. Apparently, I'm delirious from fatigue. Bah! |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 05:36:35 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Chaloobi wrote:quote:
...Dave W - the smartass...
Much better than "dumbass," thank you very much.
Dumbass would be too hard to prove. Smartass is self-evident, I think, though admittedly a bit skewed in tone.  |
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 05:40:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by satans_mom
Every one of you are stating some valid points. Almost as if we were all existentialists (which is sometimes the nicest philosophy to go by but not one I attribute to myself)...
I'd have to agree with a few points already posted. If there WERE a heaven, hypothetically speaking, I don't think we'd do games, play instruments, etc, etc, I'd believe it to be more Eastern thought, just feeling whole with the universe, feeling ecstasy, etc, etc. I don't think we'd have to compare one with something else, for in heaven, all would be one, bad and good as one, not just good.
I'd take the box with a slight bugging of curiousity.
I think nihilism might be a better term for what I suspect underlies the veneer of human culture. All the evidence points to there being no point to anything, no underlying basis for differentiating between right and wrong. The Void beckons. . . .
That said, I don't like the idea of all would be one. Sounds like the Borg. I'd prefer to spend the afterlife as an individual of some sort. |
-Chaloobi
|
| Edited by - chaloobi on 06/25/2004 05:40:56 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
