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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2004 : 19:56:21
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I have been reading the recent book by Lynne Truss, Eats, Shoots, and Leaves (a book I'd like to review here, if I have the time...), when I came across this, on page 74:
quote:
"...consider the difference between the following: 'verily, I say unto thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.' and: verily I say unto thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paraside."
Now, huge doctrinal differences hang on the placing of this comma...
I'm familiar with this verse, though I cannot site it specifically. Nor can I say whether Ms. Truss is correct in her assessment of the placement of the comma in said verse. However, if she's right, this sheds amazing new light on Christianity. After all, punctuation is a fairly new development. Before then, placing a comma (or anything else) was unheard of. In such cases, how was a person to decide how to read such a complex verse? Who's to say you're right? No doubt with little effort I could come up with a dozen other passages where punctuation could change the meanning, significant or no.
What is one to think about this? How do Christians (or other followers of religions based on ancient texts) deal with this?
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Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/10/2004 21:38:07
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 20:48:10 [Permalink]
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| That'd be Luke 23:43, and in every version but one in the Bible Gateway, it reads as in the former, with "you're going to be with me in paradise today" the apparent meaning (the oddball, the New International Reader's Version, has what's equivalent to the KJV's Luke 23:45). Now since, in that verse, Jesus is on the cross and just waiting to die, putting the comma (or otherwise splitting the phrases) in a different place doesn't make much sense. So, I'd wonder which version of the Bible has it a different way, and what "huge doctrinal differences" there are regarding it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 21:40:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
That'd be Luke 23:43, and in every version but one in the Bible Gateway, it reads as in the former, with "you're going to be with me in paradise today" the apparent meaning (the oddball, the New International Reader's Version, has what's equivalent to the KJV's Luke 23:45). Now since, in that verse, Jesus is on the cross and just waiting to die, putting the comma (or otherwise splitting the phrases) in a different place doesn't make much sense. So, I'd wonder which version of the Bible has it a different way, and what "huge doctrinal differences" there are regarding it.
Thanks for the info, Dave_W. But as I noted, it's entirely possible that she's making things up to some extent. Nevertheless, I wonder just how easy it'd be to turn things on their heads by shifting some punctuation mark. I'll look into it and get back to you... |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 21:49:17 [Permalink]
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With any participle phrase, it's possible to alter meaning by shifting a comma.
It's one of the reasons why people should take the time to learn how to use language correctly. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 07:11:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
With any participle phrase, it's possible to alter meaning by shifting a comma.
It's one of the reasons why people should take the time to learn how to use language correctly.
With out pointing any fingers, fundies on this site are easily spotted due to their lack of writing skills.
The same goes for other boards, like Rapture Ready. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 07:59:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
With out pointing any fingers, fundies on this site are easily spotted due to their lack of writing skills.
The same goes for other boards, like Rapture Ready.
This is very, very true. It makes their posts hard to read at best, and unintelligable at worst. (This, besides the sometimes lunatic positions espoused in said posts!) Right or wrong, punctuating poorly weakens your position as people are more likely to take you for uneducated or lazy. (I have left out spelling only because I am such a truely horrible speller...  )
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 08:03:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
With any participle phrase, it's possible to alter meaning by shifting a comma.
It's one of the reasons why people should take the time to learn how to use language correctly.
Right, Dude, but part of the problem with ancient languages is that they don't have punctuation. (The nearest thing in the Hebrew text is that verses and chapters are set off from one another. Other than that, though, commas, question marks, and other punctuation indicators are missing.) All punctuation has been added by modern translators. Thus, it seems that it would be easy to create or alter a certain theological position simply by messing with the punctuation. Maybe. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 15:33:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
(I have left out spelling only because I am such a truely horrible speller... )
These things are very easily solved in our high-tech society: http://www.iespell.com/
I wish there were as simple remedies for stuttering. I don't suffer from it, but my girlfriend does, and it bothers her more than a lot. Too many people don't understand that curse. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 17:29:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thus, it seems that it would be easy to create or alter a certain theological position simply by messing with the punctuation. Maybe.
It would be very simple. Especially when writing your own version of a bible... which has happened many times in history.
English is a very complex language, and it's very easy to deliberately use grammar to shift intent and meaning. If people would only pay minimal attention to their HS teachers they would empower themselves greatly by learning the basics of English grammar. Sadly, most people don't bother at the age when it's taught. I live in FL, and the public education system sucks so bad here.... they have laid out several freshman level college courses and instituted minimum writing requirements (something like 2000 words a semester per each class). Classes like basic humanities, government, ect... And they require you have to pass a state test to get an AA degree, a test that requires you to demonstrate some minimum ability to write an essay and demonstrate a certain minimum reading comprehension.
Because people don't bother to learn these basic survival skills in HS. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 13:41:53 [Permalink]
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Although not specifically related to grammar and Christianity, homophones are consistently, and annoyingly, misused on the web:
Break - Brake
Manuel - Manual
Duel - Dual
Then - Than (not a homophone, but routinely misused)
There - Their - They're
Your - You're
To - Too
And let's not overlook the common words that nobody seems to be able to spell correctly ("was that i before e?"). Generally speaking, web grammar is dramatically better on skeptic sites than those that cater to the fundamentally religious.
Tom
corrected for spelling
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| Edited by - TG on 06/28/2004 13:43:43 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 14:36:47 [Permalink]
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Spelling errors can be forgiven most of the time.
But just to point out how easily language interpretation can change meanings... the Catholic Church in (325AD, I think) had a little party called the Council of Nice. They came up with the Nicene Creed, which is where all christians today get the doctrine of the trinity and that jesus was god.
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm
They accomplished this task by manipulating a simple phrase
quote:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made;
The key line is "being of one substance". Other beliefs at the time had jesus as of the "same" substance, but subordinate.
Christians please note.... this fundamental bit of dogma was suggested by emperor Constantine.... who wasn't a christian until moments before his death.
As a side note, this may be where some of the fundies get their idea that the catholic church are "sun" worshipers. Constantine was.
Odly, many of them still adhere to the "holy trinity", which was the invention of a pagan Roman emperor. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 21:02:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude: Ê Ê Ê
Spelling errors can be forgiven most of the time.
Ahmen...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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