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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2004 : 22:11:51
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(edited slightly for arrangment)
This post is meant to challenge my fellow creationist here on the site. In peticular I am speaking to Verich.
I think there is something you are mising, that it took me a long time to figure out. That's that these people don't believe what they believe for no reason. There not stupid. I dis-agree with them in most every facet of life, but in an odd way I have grown a respect for them. (some more than others)
I feel as if you don't have any respect at all Verich. You're talking to these grown adults as if they are children. I agree with you on many of the base points you make. Yet I almost instantly had a bad reaction to you. This is because of the way you go about stating your idea's. I know some people may laugh when they hear me say this, because it is something I struggle with myself at time, but you state your case as if there is no other option. I find that most everyone on this site does the same thing often, but you do it in a way I have never seen before.
You do everything in a "hit and run" style. You make your point, and don't acknowlege other peoples response, and then just go firing off some more idea's.
Please don't get me wrong, because I agree with many (not all) things you say. I don't want to offend anyone, or sound condesending, but I believe many people are mis-led, some are looking for anything other than God. But they are NOT stupid.
I wanted t find the bible reference on this but I could'nt...."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this is right"....If you want any respect, or if you want your idea's to be taken seriously then get your idea's straight and defend them. Don't just wait until there done talking so tha you can fire more accusations. So in closing....Make your point. Listen carefuly to what they say. Respond TO WHAT THEY SAID! Not whatever you think they might not be able to answer, even if it has nothing to do with the subject.
So I encourage you Verich...do some research. Find out all the facts before stating them. Most of all..treat people with respect.
And before I go. Please nobody respond to the "misled" reference that I used earlier in this post. It was not a jab, and it was not meant to offend, and was not at all the point of this thread.
If you must respond to it, please don't put it in this thread.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
Edited by - byhisgrace88 on 06/20/2004 11:51:59
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2004 : 13:01:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
The Golden Rule... is not of biblical origin. It finds it's roots in older eastern philosophies. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 03:46:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
The Golden Rule... is not of biblical origin. It finds it's roots in older eastern philosophies.
Please substantiate Eastern roots predating Leviticus. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 04:58:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Please substantiate Eastern roots predating Leviticus.
Do you disagree, or do you just want too show how good you are?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 06:42:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
The Golden Rule... is not of biblical origin. It finds it's roots in older eastern philosophies.
Please substantiate Eastern roots predating Leviticus.
I always thought that the Golden Rule was in the New Testment.
Where in Leviticus is it? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 07:39:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Do you disagree, or do you just want too show how good you are?
I, for one, do not know, so providing some sources would be nice. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 08:02:00 [Permalink]
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Eh, who cares where it originated? Probably, it's been around in one form or another since Homo became sapient. Good advice all too rarely followed.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 10:01:15 [Permalink]
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Matthew 7:12-- "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets".-- NKJV
In the words of Christ.
(edited to enter version) |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
| Edited by - byhisgrace88 on 06/21/2004 10:03:16 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 13:00:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
golden rule: formula for social morality proposed independently in China and Palestine and recorded in texts dating from circa 600 BCE.
Of course, Socrates said it also... quote:
Socrates: Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it
to you.
Of course, Lau Tzu and Confucious said it.... around 600BC.
And Bhudda, around 500BC...
And there is a phrase in Leviticus quote:
Leviticus 19.18 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
... that is consistent with the golden rule. It is not, however, the main tool or guide in Leviticus used as a basis for the treatment of others.
But, if you credit Leviticus with the origin of the golden rule.... then it would possibly be the oldest recorded reference to it, if you go with the approximate 1440BCE date for the writing of Leviticus.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 15:37:40 [Permalink]
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| verlch, C88 is right. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 19:23:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Matthew 7:12-- "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets".-- NKJV
In the words of Christ.
(edited to enter version)
Creation88, I really like your new Signature Quote (Douglas Adams) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 00:36:40 [Permalink]
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Googling I found this:
quote:
"This is the sum of duty. Do not unto others that which would cause you pain if done to you."
-- Mahabharata 5:1517, from the Vedic tradition of India, circa 3000 BC
[edited to add]
Can't say I know anything about the Mahabharata. Anybody? |
| Edited by - Starman on 06/22/2004 00:41:10 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 13:41:50 [Permalink]
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http://www.hindunet.org/mahabharata/
has a description.
Can't say I know much about it personally. It does seem to be a reference to the golden rule that predates the writing of Moses by a fair bit. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 14:16:55 [Permalink]
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| Perhaps its just randam thoughts, It's kinda hard to answer everyone's thoughts when you are sword fighting ten men at once!!!! Sure my thoughts may be misinterperted as different, I have no evil intentions in my posts. Other than to present my side, faith. Remember faith vs. science. Perhaps I should not attack back as I have, when attacked, I think I have kept my attack-backs rather pg-13ish and below!!! Other than that my intentions are to stand beside my beliefs...as are theirs...So perhaps I will bite my tounge when I am called an Unchristian heathen, and a damned liar!!! I will let those comments bounce off my rather large puffed out chest!!!! Until another time and place, goodbye!!! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 14:47:23 [Permalink]
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Verich-- "It's kinda hard to answer everyone's thoughts when you are sword fighting ten men at once!!!"
Nobody's saying you should answer everybody's points. Nobody even tries to do that, it's impossible. But you don't answer ANY of there points. If you're "sword fighting ten men at once", then you can't expect to out duel them all at once, but you have to at least try one at a time.
If you were literaly in a sword fight as you alluded to, then when you were losing you could'nt just say "I quit"! "Let's fight over this suject instead"!
Not to sound cocky or arrogent, but I'm in a position much like yours, in which I am well out numbered. But I at least try to answer as many things as I can, even if I can't answer everything thrown at me.
VERICH-- "I have no evil intentions in my posts."
Nobody said you did.
VERICH-- "Other than to present my side, faith. Remember faith vs. science."
It's obvious to everyone what you're trieing to do. I had a problem with the way you went about doing it, not the idea in and of itself. Even in this post your doing exactly what I mentioned. Ignoring things that were said. I said "don't get me wrong, I agree with most of the base points you make". You act as if I said that you being on here at all travesty against al man kind.
I'm not attacking you. I'm trieing to help you understand, that what you're doing to promote faith over science, is not only not helping the cause, but it's hurting it. When you come in, and, debate in a way where you ignore other people's responses to your claims, that is what feeds the stereotype of clueless creationist', who when backed into a corner changes the subject.
Again, dont get me wrong here. I'm not saying that you are clueless. I'm sure that your a very inteligent guy. But you're still feeding the stereotype. You're making it easy for people to be frustrated with the way you do things.
VERICH-- "I think I have kept my attack-backs rather pg-13ish and below!!!"
Here's a thought. DON'T ATTACK BACK! I know it sounds crazy but it might just work! I'm not saying stand there and be a punching bag, but maybe instead of throwing an insult back at someone maybe give an intelligent answer that is directly applicable to the real subject at hand.
I have been called so many thing. Racist, Sexist, Naive, and a few that I can't put on here. I'm not going to say that I havn't lost my temper a few times, when someone got personal with something, but, I always try to "let it bounce off of me".
VERICH-- "So perhaps I will bite my tounge"
WOAH!!! Now there's a revolutionary thought!! |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 16:36:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
But, if you credit Leviticus with the origin of the golden rule.... then it would possibly be the oldest recorded reference to it, if you go with the approximate 1440BCE date for the writing of Leviticus.
1440 BCE? I think that's a little early, no? |
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