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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2004 : 21:29:33
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A subject that has always arised particular interest for me is that of vegetarianism and the human consumption of flesh, processed animals parts, dairy, and the like. For the past couple of years I bounced between a vegetarian diet and a nonvegetarian diet, however, the past months of lately I have not had the desire to consume what I believe humans typically should not consume, and that would be any animal product whatsoever. I explain to people, "I don't like to eat meat because I don't think I should. It's like eating a tennis ball or a shoe. I'd only do it if I were starving or thought it would taste good. I avoid dairy and foods containing milk because it is a possible idea I don't like cows nor do I like what is squeezed out of the cow." There are two responses to my professed diet, one, I am some supposed animal rights activist, and two, I am overly concerned for my health. Both of these suppositions are not complete fallacy however there are truly not the distinctive reasons behind my dieting preferences.
To explain further, I am no animal rights activist because I am no activist of any sort. I feel things are fine just the way they are, even if I don't particularly like it. I change what I can change, and what I can change is my diet, not the diets of others through direct influence. What makes validity in these assumption that I am, however, is that of my avoidance of industrialized processed animal, but at the same time, I avoid as much industrialized products as possible, products produced by major corporations, or at least to a comfortable extent. I seek each day to further this extent, but not always do I succeed. I feel that I should reach a desired state of living over a process, as to enter an extremity of lifestyle with ease.
I do not put just "anything" into my body. I refuse to consume anything that would not feel "good" in my system. The way I present myself brings about the impression that I "like to be drugged," yet the truth of it is, I don't believe any of those drugs I am presumed to do are good for me at all! For example, I avoid alcohol and smoking and most illegal drugs. Not to say that I believe illegal drugs are as dangerous as fried foods and the steroids and hormones pumped into chicken and other meats, for example. On the other hand, the reason why I avoid these things is not to prolong my living or to look better. Only to feel better for the present moment. Most of these people that question me can't comprehend this. I do many things that are quite dangerous, physical feats people would not rationally do, and I feel that is quite enough.
In an ideal world, animals would not be used for any purpose other than involving themselves in the natural cycles of nature. No need would there be to consume animals, grind them up for glues, and adorn ourselves with nonhuman animal skin.
I'd like to finish with my confession of polarities: I will smoke a cigarette from time to time so I can take a break from the kitchen in the restaurant in which I work, but I do not enjoy the activity yet feel compelled to perform it anyway. I also ate a brownie with crickets cooked into it today. Never had bugs before. They were quite crunchy, but I just couldn't eat the rice crispie treat with baked millworms on top. I would eat exotic animals if I had the chance, animals that are not part of a major industry anywhere in the world (toucan, anyone?), and I would probably try a taste of human flesh. I hear it resembles sweet pork. Sounds delicious (and did you know we are white meat?)!
[Moved to the Health Folder - Dave W.]
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Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2004 : 22:07:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
satans_mom:
For the past couple of years I bounced between a vegetarian diet and a nonvegetarian diet, however, the past months of lately I have not had the desire to consume what I believe humans typically should not consume, and that would be any animal product whatsoever.
Hi Satans_mom and welcome to SFN! I really enjoyed your post. My girlfriend eats crickets at a certain restaurant we go to. I can't eat them. They look like frog food to me. Snails are fine but crickets are out. About your vegetarianism, that is cool and all but I thought I would point out that humans are natural omnivores. We require vitamin b12 which has only animal sources. We also have special enzymes to break down animal tissue for digestion. Of course, no one has to eat a steak but if you choose not to eat animals you will have to take vitamin supplements to cover your need for b12. That's not really a problem for most vegetarians, but I do love pointing that out to vegans who insist that we are completely herbivorous...
Anyhow, happy posting! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 06:30:17 [Permalink]
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Satan's Mom, Welcome to SFN.
I'll pass on the obvious fava beans and a nice chianti sauce reference.
I'm a member of PETA, that is the People for Eating Tasty Animals. Humans, being naturally omnivorous, will tend to eat the flesh of other animals. Some of these humans have chosen to become herbivores. While this is an ethical decision, I cannot agree with your ideal of a perfect world being one which animals are not used for their myriad products. Why? Because we are predators. Humans are part of the natural cycle. Although we have changed our environment to more easily service our needs, such as farming and the raising of consumable animals, we are still the alpha predator.
It is the fact that most humans do consume animal flesh which, I believe, makes it imperative that we do use the other byproducts of animal slaughter to reduce the amount of waste.
As for exotic foods, rabbit is stringy and squirrel is greasy. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 06/21/2004 10:23:49 |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 15:39:35 [Permalink]
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Actually, in a response to both of your posts, humans being omnivores, is not necessarily true. I am a herbivore because I don't eat meat, but I am a herbivore by choice. Back in the primitive days, we were omnivores by NECESSITY. Today, it is NOT NECESSARY because we are "the top of the food chain," which, is still a bit inaccurate. There really isn't a food chain, it's a food cycle, and we are not the ultimate predators, for if we were, we would be able to physically defeat any other animal. Pit a human against a tiger, I put odds on the tiger. All animals in the food chain rely on the animals below them to survive, so animals below have a specific sense of power, and the ability to destroy the predator simply by not reproducing (we as humans understand this). However, we live in a sophisticated economy that limit the attacks of animals, for one, we outnumber them greatly, and two, what makes this economy work is the destruction of what keeps animals alive, like natural habitat. (deforestation, etc, and our hungry mouths).
If one was to claim any species as being an "ultimate predator," bacteria, viruses, and small parasitic organisms would be "on top," for the have the ability to sustain much more than a human and also have the ability to destroy another being without that being even knowing it's attacked.
And in response to the necessity for vitamin b12, it doesn't seem so necessary for me, because I have not consumed meat in a long time and I feel better than I ever have been. If the b12 vitamin deficiency will be the death of me, it will only be that other than some other cause, like cancer, for death is inevitable anyway and so is illness. In any case, I keep myself incredibly healthy simply by my diet and am quite satisfied. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 16:00:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by; satans_mom
quote:
"...and we are not the ultimate predators, for if we were, we would be able to physically defeat any other animal. Pit a human against a tiger, I put odds on the tiger."
Can't speak for others, but I ain't never seen no humans head on the wall of a tigers cave!!!!! |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 16:49:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
and we are not the ultimate predators, for if we were, we would be able to physically defeat any other animal. Pit a human against a tiger, I put odds on the tiger.
If I decide to kill a tiger, I can kill one 100% of the time. Physical prowess is meaningless in this. Intellect is a vastly superior ability when comparing the various tools predators use to kill.
quote:
All animals in the food chain rely on the animals below them to survive, so animals below have a specific sense of power, and the ability to destroy the predator simply by not reproducing
So.... rabbits can choose to not reproduce in retaliation for my cat eating them?
quote:
And in response to the necessity for vitamin b12, it doesn't seem so necessary for me, because I have not consumed meat in a long time and I feel better than I ever have been.
Do you take a multivitamin? Do you use any sports nutrition products? B12 is a common additive to many food products also....
quote:
If one was to claim any species as being an "ultimate predator," bacteria, viruses, and small parasitic organisms would be "on top,"
Micro organisms can certainly be dangerous. Compared to the total number of species of microorganisms, the number that are harmfull to humans is very small. In fact, we couldn't live without the help of certain microbes. I'm not sure it's safe to call dangerous microbes predators though. More of an evrironmental hazard really. I would agree that microbes, some with incredibly short generation times (20minutes), are probably the most evolved group of organisms alive on earth today. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 17:41:08 [Permalink]
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This is too emotional a topic for me to discuss much, but alas, I have Obsessive Posting Disorder (OPD)(TM).
I'm an animal lover and if it worked for my personal body chemistry, I would eat no animals. I do eat poultry and fish, but not pork or beef and never anything exotic. I find the eating of exotic animals "just because" to be particularly offensive.
Saying eating meat is part of the natural circle of life is circular; it's saying that what "is" is what ought to be. I agree we can choose to eat meat or not, while other animals in the wild don't have that choice. Humans do, though; we can make a bean burrito.
I completely respect vegetarians and it annoys me when meat lovers poke fun at them. Vegetarianism can be a very kind and peaceful way to walk the planet and eating a steak, while it may be pleasurable and morally OK for some, is nothing to brag about.
I'm off to eat my vegetarian pizza. And salad. And to shut up. 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 18:10:43 [Permalink]
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Actually, saying what is, is saying what is. What ought to be is that we ought to have wings and fart Kool-Aid.
I agree that vegetarianism is fine, and eating less red meat may be healthy, but vegeterianism is not spiritually superior to carnivorositati..., uh, meat eating. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 18:46:56 [Permalink]
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satans_mom wrote:quote:
And in response to the necessity for vitamin b12, it doesn't seem so necessary for me, because I have not consumed meat in a long time and I feel better than I ever have been. If the b12 vitamin deficiency will be the death of me, it will only be that other than some other cause, like cancer, for death is inevitable anyway and so is illness. In any case, I keep myself incredibly healthy simply by my diet and am quite satisfied.
Actually, B12 deficiency can mimic senile dementia, especially since it takes a long time to deplete one's B12 stores. There was a story a few years back about a guy whose kids brought him to a neurologist, fearing senility, but the quick doctor happened to put two and two together after he found out that the guy had been a strict vegetarian for 40 years. He now does - if I remember correctly - a monthly B12 injection to make sure he stays "topped off."
Here's what Merck has to say, and the first-listed symptom is anemia. They also claim that B12 stores can be wiped out in just 3 to 5 years (and you won't have symptoms until it's all gone).
And the fact that death an illness are inevitable doesn't mean it's a good idea to blithely shrug off friendly suggestions regarding matters about which you are not knowledgable and which might help to keep you healthier. Nobody is suggesting that you (in particular) should eat meat in order to get your B12, fercryinoutloud. They were suggesting you use a supplement. Health food stores will carry vegetarian (or "animal friendly" or whatever) sublingual B12 drops. Check them out. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 22:03:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
I completely respect vegetarians and it annoys me when meat lovers poke fun at them. Vegetarianism can be a very kind and peaceful way to walk the planet and eating a steak, while it may be pleasurable and morally OK for some, is nothing to brag about.
Humans are omnivores. We actually require nutrients from the plant AND animal kindoms to survive.
People, of course, are free to eat whatever floats their boat. People (like PETA, for example) who anthropromorphise all animals into cuddly-critters(tm) that we should live in harmony with.... are foolish at best, outright dangerous to themselves and others at worst. (PETA are professed vegetarians, my reason for mentioning them here)
satans_mom does not seem to be aware that harmfull nutritional deficiencies can result from a pure plant diet. Take this lack of basic information and apply it to children of an uninformed vegetarian... If their children come to harm, would you then think it's so kind and peacefull? Ignorance, in all it's ugly forms, can be harmfull.
that said... if anyone wants to eat only plants, that cool. Just make sure you make an informed decision, and obtain the appropriate nutritional supplements. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 22:26:04 [Permalink]
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The way I understood it, B12 is a byproduct of bacteria that live in animals so it's not the animal itself that's important but the B12 supplements do come from animal products so one way or another every human on a healthy, sustainable diet injests animals in a sense. My hat's off to those that have decided not to directly eat meat or meat products. But to go around posting about the great choice they have made as if it makes them better and then not even listen to what other people think is...what? Who has a word for it? Yeah, there are so many to choose from.
@ |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 05:49:06 [Permalink]
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You can get Vitamin B-12 from animal products (ie dairy products and eggs), not just animal flesh. Many of our grain products today are fortified with B-12. It's not necessary to eat animal flesh to get B-12.
Gorgo, I hafta disagree. I think choosing to NOT kill something and choosing to not induce pain and suffering in a living being...along with consuming fewer of the planet's resources is indeed a spiritual thing for some people. It's a sacrifice that's more meaningful, to me, than not eating chocolate before Lent, or something.
Some Native American tribes thanked the animals before they ate them; they had a sense of connection with all living things and a sense of gratitude. One NW tribe thanked the trees it used to make its canoes. That this isn't spiritual to YOU doesn't mean it isn't spiritual to others. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 07:02:55 [Permalink]
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I can respect the political idea of using less resources, if that is something that is true, which is another discussion. The idea that one being is "higher" than another and that it's okay to eat one and not another seems to smack of spiritual nonsense, however.
I try not to kill bugs, or keep it to a minimum. I try to get people not to bother harmless spiders, as they tend to keep the other bug population down, but people don't like having spiders around.
I understand a respect for life, and I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying that those who choose that path are not superior to those who don't. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 07:12:05 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote:quote:
I try to get people not to bother harmless spiders, as they tend to keep the other bug population down...
Ah, you're just condoning and encouraging the slaughter of bugs by spiders. Rather than get your hands bloody, you're sending out your eight-legged compatriots to do the dirty deeds.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 07:52:57 [Permalink]
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| I can then ask for protection money from the other bugs. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 12:13:52 [Permalink]
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Vegitarianism could certainly qualify as a mental illness in South Louisiana. Take away the exotic creatures for dinner and you're left with nothing but rice!
Here's an old joke on the subject;
Boudreaux and Thibodaux were were headed out on a hunting trip when suddenly Boudreaux stopped the boat and said "Mais, Thib. What that be?" He pointed to a big, round, shiny thing with a little, green creature walking out of a door on the side.
Thibodaux already had his shotgun up and jumping out of the boat. He ran toward the little green creature shouting, "I don' know, me, but I tink you better get back to da camp an' put some rice on, cuz." |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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