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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 06/22/2004 : 12:51:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Some Native American tribes thanked the animals before they ate them; they had a sense of connection with all living things and a sense of gratitude.
Yeah, but they still killed and ate them!
You cannot change the fact that humans require nutrients from animal and plant. Nobody is condoning cruelty or meaningless slaughter, just pointing out that we must kill animals in order to live ourselves.
Besides.... can you seriously tell me that anyone can resist a rack of ribs slow cooked over a hickory fire for 3 or 4 hours, basted, barbequed, and meat so tender it literally melts in your mouth.....? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 13:18:06 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote:quote:
Besides.... can you seriously tell me that anyone can resist a rack of ribs slow cooked over a hickory fire for 3 or 4 hours, basted, barbequed, and meat so tender it literally melts in your mouth.....?
I can resist. But's that's just because I don't like most meat, not because I've got any moral objections to eating animals. And yeah, I take a multivitamin to help ensure my survival.
I loooooooove bacon, though. Nice and crispy! Mmmmmmmm..... [Homer slobbering noises] |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 13:46:31 [Permalink]
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Quite a cute little joke!! hehe. I'm all too familiar with the South Lousiana diet. My entire family resides there, aside from my direct relatives.
I think a little of what I have posted in the past few days has been a bit distorted, but now that I reread my own postings I can certainly see why. No, I don't eat meat, I don't typically drink sports drinks (I think there is too much sugar in bottled drinks, for the most part) or take any vitamin supplements. But I've wondered, where do other animals get their b12? Do they just naturally develop b12 in their bodies, or do they have to consume something to get it? If they consumed other animals, where did this whole cycle begin? Assuredly, if humans do not naturally create b12 (which I cannot say we do not, for I don't know, but I'm sure someone will inform me), it would not be logical to me that all other nonhuman animals do, or at least, a vast majority. I have been suggested to taking vitamin supplements, however I do not do so, and I'm not quite sure why yet, however I know that I've tried in the past and despite what I've felt after a routine of taking them I eventually cease to continue having vitamin supplements as a part of my diet.
Maybe I'll become hopelessly senile in the future when I have reached an overripe age, but I've been hoping to avoid this at all cause by simply not getting to that point. I'm not sure how this is going to happen, but if it doesn't, then it will apparently be my destiny if my diet continues to be the way it is. I will eat another animal I have never consumed before simply for the experience. I do not feel offense in any way caused by anyone, nor do I particularly care if I offend others with those strange desires, but, I live by my philosophies which are particularly extreme in most eyes. I'd care to explain them, but I don't think I'm in the right forum to do so.
My vegetarianism is a direct result of my philosophies. I am not an animal rights activist, or eat this particular way because I want to be more healthy. I feel more healthy, and I do not harm animals, but I do not have passion towards these things. If you feel that my lack of passion results in a bothersome post, I could understand, but at the same time, I'm sure many understand why I've posted in the first place.
I do enjoy a healthy debate.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Vegitarianism could certainly qualify as a mental illness in South Louisiana. Take away the exotic creatures for dinner and you're left with nothing but rice!
Here's an old joke on the subject;
Boudreaux and Thibodaux were were headed out on a hunting trip when suddenly Boudreaux stopped the boat and said "Mais, Thib. What that be?" He pointed to a big, round, shiny thing with a little, green creature walking out of a door on the side.
Thibodaux already had his shotgun up and jumping out of the boat. He ran toward the little green creature shouting, "I don' know, me, but I tink you better get back to da camp an' put some rice on, cuz."
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Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 16:24:41 [Permalink]
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All you need to know about B12. Please read it satans_mom. You are putting yourself in harm's way by failing to comsume B12. This site, set up by the most popular group of vegetarians around, has the answers to every question you just asked about B12 (why you can't get it from plants, and why you need to supplement it).
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/
My advice? Take a freakin vitamin supplement. Your children will thank you for protecting your health and not putting yourself at needless risk. And if your children are young, make sure you are giving them a B12 supplement if they are following your dietary philosophy. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 18:22:38 [Permalink]
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Dude, human beings don't require nutrients from animals. Otherwise, the vegans in the world would drop dead. They don't. They take vitamin supplements and eat tofu and--surprise--they live.
Native Americans ate meat because at times there was little else to eat. They didn't have natural food markets where they could buy B-12 supplements and tofu. Many tribes felt a profound sense of gratitude and they thanked the animal they killed. Ever thank a cow for your ribs, Dude? A lot of it is attitude--and it's an attitude that few Americans come close to understanding.
And BTW, even when I ate beef and pork as a kid, I hated ribs. They're greasy and gritty and they have so little meat, they're hardly worth the bother. The only time I miss red meat is when I crave a cheeseburger, which is probably more of a comfort food/childhood association thing than an actual craving. I don't miss pork at all.
Gorgo, there are tons of dimmensions of morality and spirituality. I believe that on this dimmension, vegetarians hold the moral high ground. Vegetarians can be assholes in other ways, but on this issue, they're making a sacrifice that decreases the death and suffering of living things, which is more moral than CAUSING or BENFITING FROM the killing and suffering of living things.
Further, basic biology will tell you the difference between a carrot and a cow; there's most certainly a difference in sentience among living things. Carrots don't have beating hearts, spinal cords, or brains. A cow does, and it feels fear and pain. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 19:26:54 [Permalink]
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| Fer crying out loud. Suggest a friggin essential vitamin supplement and here is what you get. I don't think it's crazy to be a vegetarian. But I'm starting to think that eating that way may make you crazy... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 20:16:20 [Permalink]
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satans_mom wrote:quote:
Maybe I'll become hopelessly senile in the future when I have reached an overripe age, but I've been hoping to avoid this at all cause by simply not getting to that point.
Live fast, die young, and leave a non-senile corpse? Is that what you're getting at?
Good grief. Since when is not taking care of yourself -- by ignoring a commonly-known, and relatively easy-to-fix problem with vegetarianism -- a "philosophy?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 20:54:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo, there are tons of dimmensions of morality and spirituality. I believe that on this dimmension, vegetarians hold the moral high ground. Vegetarians can be assholes in other ways, but on this issue, they're making a sacrifice that decreases the death and suffering of living things, which is more moral than CAUSING or BENFITING FROM the killing and suffering of living things.
I think the moral high ground is lost when some, I said some, vegans don't take their supplements and have babies with low birth weights and lower IQ's. I have never heard of a Vegan that could remain healthy without their supplement whether it's from dairy products or fish. They either ingest an animal byproduct, take a supplement, eat meant or are not healthy except within their own minds making their moral stance all but an illusion. This doesn't mean that animals have to be mistreated but to keep costs low this is probably the case and i will take it any day when it's my health at stake. So until the Bovine Wars are over and I am the one grazing in the field until the day of the sharp knives I will choose survival for myself and good health for my children and urge intellectual honesty from the vegans.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 22:42:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude, human beings don't require nutrients from animals. Otherwise, the vegans in the world would drop dead. They don't.
False.
The vegans SUPPLEMENT B12. Their organization is well aware of the risk associated with not getting B12. Their website even tells you that B12 is only available in nature FROM ANIMALS!
Only recently (relatively speaking) have we been able to produce B12 in supplemental form not derived from animals. The source of B12 in human diets, until this point, has been of animal origin. It is a nurtient your body requires, a deficiency of it kills you.
And so what if native Americans respected nature and animals? So do I. It does not change the FACT that B12 deficiency can kill you. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 05:48:15 [Permalink]
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Dude, some Native American tribes didn't just "respect" nature and animals. They believe they are interconnected...equal...in harmony...in gratitude. Or other words there probably aren't English translations for. Read up on some tribal spirituality before you compare your beliefs to theirs, in fairness.
Second, if vegans can get B-12 from supplements, then they're not REQUIRED to get it from animals. They can choose to NOT eat animals or animal products, take a B-12 supplement (which I take, even though I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan), and they can survive.
It's reasonable to say, 'I'm morally comfortable with eating animals and I think that eating some meat can be part of a healthy lifestyle.' I don't share this viewpoint, but it's a reasonable one. What bothers me is making fun of vegetarians, making light of the suffering of cows and chickens, pretending that the suffering doesn't go on, assuming the vegetarians are automatically unhealthy, etc.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 07:01:00 [Permalink]
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| Just because plants don't have human qualities doesn't make their lives worth less than that of humans or animals or insects or fish or birds. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 10:00:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude, some Native American tribes didn't just "respect" nature and animals. They believe they are interconnected...equal...in harmony...in gratitude.
Which does not change the FACT they killed and ate them. What difference does it make if you kill something to eat, and then thank it... as opposed to killing it to eat it, and just being thankfull you got some food? This whole subtopic is not really relevent to this thread anyway.... Native Americans are not vegetarians.
quote:
Second, if vegans can get B-12 from supplements, then they're not REQUIRED to get it from animals. They can choose to NOT eat animals or animal products, take a B-12 supplement (which I take, even though I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan), and they can survive.
B12 supplements are derived from animal byproducts. In the 1970's was when we learned how to produce it in supplement form. It's still made with microorganisms found in non-human animals. The Vegan website pretty clearly states that there is no evidence that humans can obtain enough B12 from plant sources. One would assume that they have tried.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 12:54:08 [Permalink]
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Okayquote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
satans_mom wrote:quote:
Maybe I'll become hopelessly senile in the future when I have reached an overripe age, but I've been hoping to avoid this at all cause by simply not getting to that point.
Live fast, die young, and leave a non-senile corpse? Is that what you're getting at?
Good grief. Since when is not taking care of yourself -- by ignoring a commonly-known, and relatively easy-to-fix problem with vegetarianism -- a "philosophy?"
No, that's not exactly right.... I take care of myself more than anyone I know. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I try and stay physically active, and I avoid meat because I simply dislike it, as much as I dislike the rest. And what is this "commonly-known and relatively easy-to-fix problem?" I don't see any solution from my vegetarianism because I can't see a problem. Perhaps I'm not looking at the bigger picture.
I'll live my life the way i choose to do so. And I choose to live, not to become a vegetable someday. I choose to be of free will, but I understand that is not always possible! Perhaps I am condemning myself to be "unhealthy" in the future. And I don't have children. I'm still a child myself. If I do have children, and they wish to eat meat, I won't inhibit them from doing so. It's their bodies, they shall consume what I provide them, and if they so wish, I will provide organic meats.
I just think that opposed to when I ate meat and now, my body is in a MUCH better state and will remain that way until age proves otherwise. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 13:29:30 [Permalink]
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satans_mom wrote:quote:
And what is this "commonly-known and relatively easy-to-fix problem?"
The fact that a vegetarian diet is severely lacking in B12. In other words, what we've been talking about for many posts, now. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 12:56:10 [Permalink]
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1. You can just take a B12 supplement : Vegetarien diet now healthy.
2. Most meat eaters have a diet far worse than any B12 deficiency - due to a diet that is too high in fat.
3. "Just because plants don't have human qualities doesn't make their lives worth less than that of humans or animals or insects or fish or birds." I disagree-
I think being sentinent is a good guide to the worth of a life, not the fact of being alive alone. |
"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now" |
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