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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2004 : 15:36:54 [Permalink]
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Verlch, I'm still looking for answers to my questions:
What is a micro change and what is a macro change? Where is the line? How do several micro changes not make up 1 macro change? Why can the DNA only change to have a micro change, but not macro? Where is the limit to how much the DNA can change? How does this limit work?
"What is mother natures purpose in creating trillions of species on earth? why not just create man, and have him walk about aimlessly, what is the purpose of all the other beasts of the field? In your eyes, that are attached to your skull so you can see, why do you think mother nature created death? Why would mother nature spend all that time evolving something and allow it to die?"
First of all, mother nature does not function on purpose. And neither does the universe.
Second, are you joking? Whats the point of other animals? Someone else explain the food chain to verlch, I'm simply not going to.
"If mother nature developed ways to live off of oxygen, that germs created, develope lungs and the such, why didn't it make us like off of Carbon instead of oxygen. Since there is more of it in the atmosphere?"
Thats like saying why not put the square peg in the round hole? The answer is simple, it just doesn't work.
"Why do we have to eat? And who set all these rules? What are the chances of us.
1. Living off the soil.
2. Drinking the water off the earth to survive.
3. Breathing the 'breath of life' oxygen all over the planet."
Why do we eat? To consume minerals needed for our body to carry out functions, such as making protien.
Who? No one. Unless you consider natural selection a person.
What are the chances of us doing those things? Here is the way natural selection works verlch. DNA mutates randomly, bringing on random changes. These either help a life form survive, or they kill it. When a life form survives, it reproduces. When it dies, it doesn't reproduce (execpt in some rare species like the spider who gets his head bitten off while mating with the female). So those that have an advantage survive and pass on the trait, those who die, don't. So since living off soil (I guess you mean eating plants?), drinking water, and intaking O2 all work, we survive and pass it on. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 15:57:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
(I guess you mean eating plants?), drinking water, and intaking O2 all work, we survive and pass it on.
This gumble of words and works of evolution just creates an endless amount of stories, and ways for it to work!! I can write a book and make any beginning and ending I want!!! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 16:55:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
just the last 100 years going through modification which left them unable to breed with the original species
As you would say to me, where is your proof?
The London Subway Mosquito.
When the subway was built, mosquitoes followed people down there. They learned to live in the artificial light, and learned that food (humans and other mammals rather than their previous source: birds) were readily available.
After a hundred years of living separated from their surface "cousins" they have evolved different feeding and mating habits. These habits separated them enough to let genetics evolve them to a separate species.
They can not interbreed anymore.
http://www.gene.ch/gentech/1998/Jul-Sep/msg00188.html
This is a fine example of micro changes....It would be nice to observe this, and to try and test the outcome.
Read the first friggin post Verlch!
The one posted by Welshdean. What part of that post do you not understand?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 17:24:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
What is mother natures purpose in creating trillions of species on earth? why not just create man, and have him walk about aimlessly, what is the purpose of all the other beasts of the field? In your eyes, that are attached to your skull so you can see, why do you think mother nature created death? Why would mother nature spend all that time evolving something and allow it to die?
Many questions you have there verlch. And we have answers to them. The question is... Do you really want to know? You seem really satisfied with the answer "God did it". Or could it be that the answers we have to your questions is calling out to you?
quote:
If mother nature developed ways to live off of oxygen, that germs created, develope lungs and the such, why didn't it make us like off of Carbon instead of oxygen. Since there is more of it in the atmosphere?
What do you mean with this paragraph? Other than trying to obfuscate?
And as usual you have the science dead wrong. There is not more carbon than oxygen in our atmosphere.
Get your facts straight, looser. Until you do, any question regarding science from you will be treated as hogwash.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 18:17:07 [Permalink]
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Read the first friggin post Verlch!
What did insects evolve from, fish also? Insects evolved from 'baby fish'!!!
Please tell me the magical evolutionary line of insects!!! I want to hear this one! This should be really good!!! How did spiders eat while they where learning how to spin a web?
I am the offical looser that doesn't agree evolution, please forgive me... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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| Edited by - verlch on 06/26/2004 18:20:18 |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 18:23:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Read the first friggin post Verlch!
The one posted by Welshdean. What part of that post do you not understand?
That is fine, I don't have a problem with it. Things do develop different traits in a micro kindof way. It still doesn't invent whole species, and if it does there should be ample proof of things slowly changing over a period of a few hundred million years. If misquotes can do that in how long one year? |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 19:57:25 [Permalink]
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"There is not more carbon than oxygen in our atmosphere."
Wow, I really can't believe that I missed that, good pickup.
"What did insects evolve from, fish also? Insects evolved from 'baby fish'!!!"
First of all, you asking if an insect evolved from a baby fish only shows that you have no concept whatsoever what evolution is. Please, find out what it actually is before you go against it. Thats all I ask.
Evolution of insects: http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s814844.htm
"How did spiders eat while they where learning how to spin a web?"
You make the simple and incorrect assumption that all spiders spin webs. I'm not quite sure, but I think the wolf spider is one who doesn't.
"I am the offical looser that doesn't agree evolution, please forgive me..."
You are not the loser for disagreeing with evolution, however you are one for the way you "discuss" things in a forum. You go from assertion to assertion and playing red herring.
"That is fine, I don't have a problem with it. Things do develop different traits in a micro kindof way. It still doesn't invent whole species, and if it does there should be ample proof of things slowly changing over a period of a few hundred million years."
And there is. Scientists took the fossil record along with visual comparisons and made a lineage of all life (that we knew of at that point). Then they found this stuff known as DNA which backed up that lineage 100%. We have shown you this evidence, we have shown you of examples, numerous examples of species that were observed to evolve into another species, but you just ignore that and then claim there is no evidence. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 20:09:26 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
I am the offical looser that doesn't agree evolution, please forgive me...
There are several people posting on the SFN these days who don't agree with evolution. You are singled out not because you don't agree, but because you disagree with willful ignorance of what evolution is. That you are asking "what are the odds" sorts of questions after having said that it is your goal to "destroy" evolution just shows that you've got no clue about what you are attempting to erradicate, which is nothing but bigotry. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 20:12:25 [Permalink]
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We just need to stop responding to verlch. He doesn't listen, and he always just responds with either more assertions or some inflamatory remark.
He's just trolling SFN, and doing it well by the number of responses we throw at him. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 22:10:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Silverfish belong to a group thought to be the closest relatives of winged insects.
Eeeny Minney minney mo, yeah its that one 'silver fish', Many insects came from a polymonophyletic insect of the ages....Great that sounds like a good fiction movie!!! Notice none of this is in the fossil record!!! Plenty of insects have been trapped in pine sapp, perfectly perserved and perfectly unchanged!!!
So you have trillions of types of insects, different, evolving this way and that, to create the insect kingdom and to serve what purpose? What is the purpose of mother nature to have that kindof diversity in life? Those are questions, all of my questions should be easily answered by your facts!!! Since your beliefs judge me and call me a looser, troll, idoit, dorknuts, and the like, your theory, which you all believe as fact, should produce more than insults directed at me. You ideas are the outcome of what you think is best to fit 'your' theory!! All others are dorks and idiots for not 'seeing' all the hypothetical evidence!!!!!! I have read more articles about evolution than I ever have, and all it did was raise my blood pressure and quetions that I have. Your facts should be able to answer my questions, what mother nature is just way above human thought. Her ways are a mystery to you? Her qualites and life creating ability are masked in such darkness, we are to just 'believe' it, and question it later? I think not. Besides having a Phd in evolution what have I missed here besides the concept?
quote:
"Whatever the outcome, we will have a more solid understanding of how six-legged animals colonised and then took over the terrestrial world," he said.
How does some guy saying, yeah this fits, get you guys any closer to finding out our origins? This is a work of fiction, void of any facts, and I am the idiot not afraid to tell any radical evolutionist anywhere.
http://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/silverfish.htm
quote:
Silverfishy may lay eggs at any time during the year, and take 19-43 days to hatch.
What came first the silverfish or the egg? So in order for the whole of the insect kingdom to evolve one must learn how to lay an egg, before insect evolution can occur. All of the insect kingdom now lays on the fact that if a 'silverfish' doesn't learn how to lay eggs, molt, gradual metamorphosis, and become every living figure of lifeform of the insect kingdom, no insects will exist!!!! Whaaaa?
Ummm, where did I miss some of the facts here? So I'm speechless!!!
quote:
Because they molt during their adult lives their cast skins may be a useful detection too.
So boys, now that the silverfish created the whole of the insect kingdom, now comes the million dollar question. Where the heck did the silverfish come from!!!! A dinosaur? Monkey poop? What? This is the missing link of the insect kingdom... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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| Edited by - verlch on 06/26/2004 22:12:14 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 22:42:23 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
What is the purpose of mother nature to have that kindof diversity in life?
You're just displaying your ignorance again, by assuming that there has to be a "purpose" of some sort. What if there isn't?
Also note that the theory of evolution doesn't posit a "mother nature," either. Anthropomorphizing natural processes is surely a tool of Satan, meant to confound understanding.
And to answer your other question, the egg still came first. Your assumption that there was a sharp dividing line between "insect" and "non-insect" is what is wrong here. Especially since "Silverfish belong to a group thought to be the closest relatives of winged insects" (emaphasis mine), and not necessarily all insects (most ants, for example, do not have wings). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 08:48:25 [Permalink]
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"So you have trillions of types of insects, different, evolving this way and that, to create the insect kingdom and to serve what purpose? What is the purpose of mother nature to have that kindof diversity in life?"
Well, ignoring the word puprose and using a better one, reason, instead. The reason that "mother nature" (describing all biological processes that occur naturally) makes diverse species is survival. If there is a diverse species and the environment changes, then that species will have a greater chance of survival. Since its diverse, some members may be able to survive and others not. If its a species where everything is exactly the same, its a 50% chance that they will be able to survive. Not very good. This is a trend that can be seen in evolution, from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. Sexual reproduction mixes up the genes and creates a more diverse species, which is why the species that came later in the evolutionary time scale use it.
"Since your beliefs judge me and call me a looser, troll, idoit, dorknuts, and the like, your theory, which you all believe as fact, should produce more than insults directed at me."
Yes, it is our beliefs that people should not go around making assumptions and arguing against things that they don't even know about. This is what makes you those thing. Like I said before (maybe in another topic), I don't mind with people who disagree with me, in fact, I encourage it. However, you have displayed yourself as nothing more than a person who won't take the time to get to know an idea before you reject it.
"We just need to stop responding to verlch. He doesn't listen, and he always just responds with either more assertions or some inflamatory remark."
Well, I don't know about you, but in the responses to all of his questions, I sure have learned a lot. He may think he is destroying evolution, but for every question he pitches, we take our bat and hit it out of the park with reason and logic, it only strenghtens our stance. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 10:21:54 [Permalink]
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Verlch wrote:
quote:
This gumble of words and works of evolution just creates an endless amount of stories, and ways for it to work!! I can write a book and make any beginning and ending I want!!!
Somebody already wrote this book, but not about evolution. Its called The Bible. Why is it you can understand that "endless amount of stories, and ways for it to work", which is based on primitive fears and superstitions, but seem to have trouble grasping even the simplest scientific concept? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 18:26:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by verlch
quote:
If mother nature developed ways to live off of oxygen, that germs created, develope [sic] lungs and the such, why didn't it make us like [sic]off of Carbon instead of oxygen. Since there is more of it in the atmosphere?
Verlch, this is the biggest and most common mistake made by fundies. You all seem to look at where and how we are today and try to reason backward. In other words, you all seem to try and fit us into a world that would be quite alien to us today. If you looked at the problem from the other direction and tried to see how life has progressed, how changes to/in the world has brought about changes to/in the animal populous, it becomes much easier to follow.
Stop trying to crowbar us (animals) into a retrospective environment. Just simply try to appreciate that if the environment is changed the animal world will follow.
with regard to your oxygen v carbon misdirection have you ever heard of 'Hydro-Thermal Vents' and the life forms that inhabit them. For years it was assumed that the Sun was the integral source of energy for life on this planet. Not so. Believe it or not chemosynthesis as well as photosynthesis can sustain life.
From USGS - This dynamic Earthquote:
Since 1977, other hot springs and associated sea life have been found at a number of sites along the mid-oceanic ridges, many on the East Pacific Rise. The waters around these deep-ocean hot springs, which can be as hot as 380 °C, are home to a unique ecosystem. Detailed studies have shown that hydrogen sulfide-oxidizing bacteria, which live symbiotically with the larger organisms, form the base of this ecosystem's food chain. The hydrogen sulfide (H2S--the gas that smells like rotten eggs) needed by these bacteria to live is contained in the volcanic gases that spew out of the hot springs. Most of the sulfur comes from the Earth's interior; a small portion (less than 15 percent) is produced by chemical reaction of the sulfate (SO4) present in the sea water. Thus, the energy source that sustains this deep-ocean ecosystem is not sunlight but rather the energy from chemical reaction (chemosynthesis).
In the eloquent words of Dr Ian Malcolm "..I am merely stating that uhh... life finds a way." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107290/quotes |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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| Edited by - welshdean on 06/30/2004 18:29:20 |
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