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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2004 : 04:23:29
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Cosby has shouted his rage against the virus infecting the community of black teenagers.
The virus is anti-intellectualism and it is an epidemic in the total society. Our black teens display the syndrome in a most remarkable way. The total society displays the syndrome in a less obvious manner but the signs are obvious and the virus is dangerous.
What is the antidote to anti-intelllectualism?
[Moved to the Social Issues folder - Dave W.]
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 09:38:18 [Permalink]
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Cosby, as I understand things, has also been criticized for painting with such a broad brush, as you are. What, precisely, are the symptoms "our black teens" are presenting with, which are so remarkable?
Part of the antidote to anti-intellectualism must be to eliminate the impression that intellectuals are snobs, or even appear to consider people like "our black teens" as somehow lower in societal ranks. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 10:01:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
coberst:
The virus is anti-intellectualism and it is an epidemic in the total society. Our black teens display the syndrome in a most remarkable way. The total society displays the syndrome in a less obvious manner but the signs are obvious and the virus is dangerous.
Bill Cosby directed his remarks at black's because that was who he was speaking to. And because he is black. His intention was not to give comfort to those who believe a racial stereotype.
To put it better:
quote:
"Anyone in the white community who says, `That fits my stereotype of poor, black people,' is committing a gross sin and a misapplication of Cosby's message," said Hollon, pastor of St. Matthews Baptist Church. "The laser of criticism can cut its swath across any particular ethnic group."
http://www.courier-journal.com/localnews/2004/05/30ky/B1-cosby0530-9647.html
These problems Cosby speaks of are across the board and across all races. Bad parenting is not unique to the black community. While I think we should discuss these problems, I would be careful not to single out blacks with statements like "Our black teens display the syndrome in a most remarkable way."
Note: This thead should be in the Social Issues Folder. I would move it if I knew how... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 11:51:03 [Permalink]
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Cosby's remarks spoke the truth as I understand it based upon all that I hear and see.
Cosby stated that black teens consider it to be to white to care about acquiring an education. This is not to minimize the anti-intellectualism that dominates our complete society. It is also not to minimize the extent to which black teeens are especially discriminated against.
I do not take the position that I must be blind to the fact that black teens especially are injured because of this epidemic. The problem is that they are hurting primarily themself. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 12:43:08 [Permalink]
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coberst, have you ever been to a poor white neighborhood? The problems that Cosby is so critical of in the black community are the same across all racial backgrounds in this country.
While I agree that Cosby's main point, that black parents need to be involved in their childrens lives and education, is entirely valid... I'd also have to say that it is a valid statement if you replace the word black with all.
Cosby is getting alot of flack for his remarks, but the truth hits home and makes people uncomfortable when it illuminates problems they'd rather ignore. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 03:10:22 [Permalink]
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I never lived in a poor white neighborhood but I have been in them. I grew up in a small poor white town but I guess that is different.
I certainly agree that our complete society is very anti-intellectual. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 08:27:26 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
Cosby stated that black teens consider it to be to white to care about acquiring an education.
And back in my school days, many white teens simply considered school to be "uncool," and avoiding school (or avoiding doing well there) as "cool." The result is the same, regardless of the reasoning, and there's nothing particularly remarkable about what "our black teens" think except for the implied racism. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 08:57:15 [Permalink]
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This is another example of why black/white either/or thinking limits the ability to examine an issue.
Blacks experience discrimination and racism (cultural influences). Individuals bear responsibility for their lives (individual influences.) Both of these interact to create reality.
Social class exerts a huge influence on people of all color. It ain't easy for a poor child of color to learn to play golf, quote Noam Chomsky, pontificate on the nuances of red wine...? |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 07:31:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And back in my school days, many white teens simply considered school to be "uncool," and avoiding school (or avoiding doing well there) as "cool." The result is the same, regardless of the reasoning, and there's nothing particularly remarkable about what "our black teens" think except for the implied racism.
I dunno Dave W. While it's true that there've always been (and probably always shall be) people who don't think school is "cool" high school graduation rates are not good for black students. (Look here for more information.) One could also look at incarceration rates for young black men. While one might argue that the incredible rate of incarceration for black people is partly due to biases in our criminal justice system, it is hard to beleive that they are entirely a result of that.
So the question is to ask why this is? We can surely remove the simple explanation of race-- to say "you don't do well in school because you're black" or some such is just plain dumb. But can we also exclude the (for lack of a better word) culture that is associated with inner city blacks? Part of Cosby's comments (which was the start of this thread to begin with) related to the now stereo-typical grammar and lexicon of the black teen:
quote:
I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said then. "And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth."
This is perhaps harsh, but it's hard to argue against, is it not?
But is (again, for lack of a better term) this "culture" a cause of the problem, or yet a deeper symptom of it?
This is harder to figure out, and I cannot here pretend to have answers. Surely part of, say, a sadly high rate of high school failure is made consciously as an act of rebellion against the dominant (white?) paradigm of society (go to school, get a job, get married, have kids, etc.) But part has to be a result of other factors, e.g. poverty, crime, drugs. But this becomes cyclical, right? Things like poverty, crime and drugs contribute to a poor education and poor life choices, which then leads to more poverty, which can lead to crime and drugs, and on it goes.
What I think Cosby was trying to do was to ask people to try and break that cylce. I imagine that it would take a monumental effort to try and raise a child in an environment of poverty and crime and where school and learning are seen as useless wastes of time and yet manage to instill a desire to learn and better yourself all while staying within the law. But I wonder if that's what it's going to have to take to break the cycle.
(Edited because HTML codes are hard to figure out) |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 07/06/2004 07:37:00 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 07:47:45 [Permalink]
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Actually, there is no reason to think that hundreds of thousands of people are in the U.S. Justice system for anything other than the color of their skin or their income:
http://www.drugwarfacts.com/racepris.htm |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 08:25:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Actually, there is no reason to think that hundreds of thousands of people are in the U.S. Justice system for anything other than the color of their skin or their income:
http://www.drugwarfacts.com/racepris.htm
Again, I do not deny that there are problems in our criminal justice system-- particularly when it comes to race and drugs. Can we say that even most blacks in prison are just victims of a corrupt system?
A study I'd like to see-- if only to straighten out the troubling anecdotal (and therefore suspect) evidence I see-- is one that tracks the race of perpetrators of violent crime. My experience from the two very urban cities I've lived in (one past, one present)-- this from looking at local papers and crime blotters, etc.-- suggests that there's a rather high proportion of violent crime where the suspect is identified as black.
But how does this compare with elsewhere? Or am I even getting all the information I need? I don't know. But that's the image.
My suggestion is that the poverty and poor prospects for gainful employment-- perhaps caused by a lack of education-- plus other social pressures can lead to criminal action like muggings and break-ins. I could be wrong, but I don't have the material at hand to know for sure. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 16:39:58 [Permalink]
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There is one thing that I want to know, and it gets me labeled racist sometimes when I ask the question... Maybe the enforcement arm of our criminal justice system isn't as racist as people armed with "the statistics" make it out to be? What if minorities do, in fact, break the law that much more than whites? I suspect it's true.
The problem lies not so much with our criminal justice system, but rather with the issue of personal accountability and responsibility. What can we (society as a whole) do to encourage a truly equal distribution of responsibility and accountability across all of our ethnic and racial components? Hard questions. I think a starting point would be to evaluate our current system of economic justice and ensure that we are doing as much as feasible to assist those who have the least. Second, we need to have a public education system that really works. Our system isn't perfect. And I doubt any system will ever make everyone happy. But I think we can do better. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 19:13:09 [Permalink]
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Dude, read Gorgo's links. They're excellent. Really.
Think of the levels and layers you're missing by suggesting that blacks commit more crime than whites.
1. Blacks may be more likely to be ARRESTED than whites (or even just pulled over--ask your black friends about that one!)
2. Blacks may be more likely to be SENTENCED to prison than whites (ie harsher sentences for minorities)
3. Crimes more common in the black community may have harsher prison sentences (crack cocaine vs. powder cocaine)
4. Blacks may have inadequate legal representation and may be more likely to end up in prison vs. a suspended sentence or probation or even acquittal
5. Blacks may be reported for crime more often than whites
6. Black culture can afford less perceived opportunity and can create more anger, desperation, hopelessness, etc.
These are just some thoughts--some from my memory of my readings, some from Gorgo's sites, some off the top of my head.
I consider myself lucky to walk the universe with white skin. Heck, it's hard enough being me WHITE. Being me BLACK...oy. The angst.  |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 21:43:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
A good essay on Cosby's remarks.
http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2004-06/24wise.cfm
Wise's essay is nice, but I'm not sure I'd call it "good." For instance, he sets up a number of straw-man arguments. He makes such comments as:
quote:
Funny how whites want to view personal responsibility as a one-way street: In other words, "they" need to clean up their act, but "we" don't need to do anything but perhaps watch, and scold them for not moving quickly enough.
And
quote:
But I see very little self-help or even self-reflection in the white community. Rarely do we spend time dealing with our own internalized racial biases and fears, or the discrimination that continues to plague people of color, and which only we have any control over, since the folks doing the discriminating are white like us.
In fact, not only do we not reflect on it, we get angry when someone brings it up, which is why whites breathe a collective sigh of relief when someone like Cosby comes along and allows us to think our jobs are over.
Really? Whites don't think about racism? At all?!? Do whites never talk about "internalized racism"? I find this hard to fathom.
Wise further rants
quote:
Even worse, many whites actually blame others for our own racial biases. So, for example, whites will often acknowledge negative perceptions of blacks as lazy, violent, dishonest, or whatever, and then blame black folks for feeding that perception by their own actions.
And then
quote:
Just listen to the logic here: "Racism isn't holding blacks back, it's their own laziness!" If one cannot see the irony in this comment go back and read it again; read it three or four times until you get it. If anything, statements like this are their own negation; they serve to disprove their own claim, even before someone has the chance to respond to them.
The only problem is, Wise is the one setting up the white straw men. Sure-- we can all see the irony in Wise's argument. What's key though is to see that it's largely a construct created to generate interest in his piece.
This isn't to say that there's no such thing as racism. It's just to say that Wise, in his defense of black culture, goes a bit too far in portraying black culture as one of continual improvement and betterment, only to be torn down by whites who refuse to reflect on their own racial biases. As in any hotly-debated issue, there is likely a middle-ground that is in reality nothing like the groups which fight about it. |
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