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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2004 : 05:37:34
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I'll show you my model if you will show me yours.
Humans are intellectual model builders. At birth I begin to create an understanding of the world I perceive. I suggest that understanding is an act of creation. Understanding is the product that reason creates, it is the model of my world, as I perceive it.
The model starts out as simplistic and chaotic. The rest of my life is an attempt, for reasons of self-interest, to make my model more suitable; in tune with, true to, the world I perceive. Reason is the intellectual faculty that ‘guides' this endeavor.
The better my reason works the better will be my model. The science of reason is Critical Thinking. The more expert I am at Critical Thinking the better my model. The more I recognize this fact the better my chances of building a sophisticated model.
The lumber and nails I use for my model is the knowledge I have learned. The greater my knowledge of history the better is my understanding of human nature. The greater my knowledge of philosophy the better my reason functions. The greater my knowledge of science the better my understanding of nature. Mathematics is the science of pattern, what better agent for model building?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 05:57:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
The model starts out as simplistic and chaotic. The rest of my life is an attempt, for reasons of self-interest, to make my model more suitable; in tune with, true to, the world I perceive. Reason is the intellectual faculty that ‘guides' this endeavor.
For Fundies(tm) it is not reason, but Morton's Demon that is the filter that 'guides' this endeavor.
It's sad more than anything else. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 11:14:51 [Permalink]
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| Just as long as we don't get so wrapped up in our models that we fail to recognize when it is obsolete. We have to be willing to critically appraise the current model and scrap / renovate as needed as new evidence comes to light, or we wind up with models that no longer reflect the best information. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 05:58:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I'll show you my model if you will show me yours.
Humans are intellectual model builders. At birth I begin to create an understanding of the world I perceive. I suggest that understanding is an act of creation. Understanding is the product that reason creates, it is the model of my world, as I perceive it.
The model starts out as simplistic and chaotic. The rest of my life is an attempt, for reasons of self-interest, to make my model more suitable; in tune with, true to, the world I perceive. Reason is the intellectual faculty that ‘guides' this endeavor.
The better my reason works the better will be my model. The science of reason is Critical Thinking. The more expert I am at Critical Thinking the better my model. The more I recognize this fact the better my chances of building a sophisticated model.
The lumber and nails I use for my model is the knowledge I have learned. The greater my knowledge of history the better is my understanding of human nature. The greater my knowledge of philosophy the better my reason functions. The greater my knowledge of science the better my understanding of nature. Mathematics is the science of pattern, what better agent for model building?
I'm beginning to think Coberst is taking Philosophy 101 and every time he reads a new chapter in the book, he comes here an makes a post on the subject. Why? Because he's posting a LOT of ideas, but seems to lack any depth of understanding of any of them. |
-Chaloobi
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 06:03:26 [Permalink]
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Challobi
It has been thirty years since I took Logic 101 but my recollection is that either Logic 101 has changed significantly in the last 30 years or you speak nonsense. Or perhaps you have never been exposed to Logic 101. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 07:49:22 [Permalink]
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Challobi
I think I know what your problem is, you are confusing logic and epistemology.
Aristotelian Logic focuses primarily on the nature of deductive reason and the syllogism. The student is exposed to the logical fallacies that are commonly a problem not so much because the people who use fallacious arguments are not aware of their fallacious nature but because common fallacies tend to sway so many of the population.
Such fallacies are common in propaganda. That is the reason that knowledge of Critical Thinking is so useful to all citizens. A citizen well grounded in Critical Thinking has immunity to propaganda and superstition.
Epistemology is focused on knowing and the nature of knowledge. You will observe that most of my postings are about knowledge, knowing and understanding. I admit that I speak often about Critical Thinking and Critical Thinking is about both logic and epistemology. It is also about attitude. You will find that I made one post strictly about attitude.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 11:04:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
Challobi
It has been thirty years since I took Logic 101 but my recollection is that either Logic 101 has changed significantly in the last 30 years or you speak nonsense. Or perhaps you have never been exposed to Logic 101.
As you've said that you took Logic 101 30 years ago. I find that good. However, Challobi specifically stated Philosophy 101.
I agree with his assessment as you seem to post on a myriad of philisopical subjects without much depth of understanding.
Perhaps you could elaborate what point you were trying to make here. Or at least what makes you think that we are strangers to philosophy.
-- Eureka is Greek for "Damn, this water is hot!" |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 11:52:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
Challobi
It has been thirty years since I took Logic 101 but my recollection is that either Logic 101 has changed significantly in the last 30 years or you speak nonsense. Or perhaps you have never been exposed to Logic 101.
It has changed. Philosophy 101 and Logic 101 are two different classes now. Or at least when I took them about 13 years ago. Coberst, I don't understand what you're fishing for - you drop a lot of lines and then get overwhelmed by the response. What's up? |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 11:55:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
Challobi
I think I know what your problem is, you are confusing logic and epistemology.
Aristotelian Logic focuses primarily on the nature of deductive reason and the syllogism. The student is exposed to the logical fallacies that are commonly a problem not so much because the people who use fallacious arguments are not aware of their fallacious nature but because common fallacies tend to sway so many of the population.
Such fallacies are common in propaganda. That is the reason that knowledge of Critical Thinking is so useful to all citizens. A citizen well grounded in Critical Thinking has immunity to propaganda and superstition.
Epistemology is focused on knowing and the nature of knowledge. You will observe that most of my postings are about knowledge, knowing and understanding. I admit that I speak often about Critical Thinking and Critical Thinking is about both logic and epistemology. It is also about attitude. You will find that I made one post strictly about attitude.
Classic example in this post - this stuff you write looks like notes off a chalk board. There's factual knowledge, but nothing really to talk about. It's like you're trying to demonstrate what you know, but that doesn't really interest the people around here. I keep seeing you start these threads and then get pounced upon.
EDIT: And I don't really have a problem with your posts, I guess. They've been the nucleus for some good discussion, but I've seen you get kicked around by some of the stalwarts around here so badly I began to feel embarrassed for you. So I had to ask the question. What's up with this? Is there a goal you're angling for? Are you a gentle troll? Are you doing research for a book on argumentative skeptics? |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 07/06/2004 11:59:28 |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 12:24:56 [Permalink]
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I am not sure what problem you and your friends have but I will be more than willing to state my position.
I am what I call a senior scholar, which I define as being over forty a Critical Thinker and a self-learner. I have been as such for more than 20 years. My formal education is engineering. I am a retired electronics engineer. I worked for 12 years in various engineering position, an additional 15 years as a partner in a firm representing manufacturers of electronic equipment. I was a manufacturesr's rep.
I sold my interest in the rep firm to my partners after 12 years and became a small business entrapener (sp?). I retired from all that and now live in the mountans in southwest North Carolina.
My experience as a senior scholar has been very satisfactory for me. I have great pleasure and satisfaction doing this.
My experience leads me to the conclusion that adults in the US are unaware of many fundamental intellectual matters. They are also very intellectually lazy and intellectually unsophisticated.
There seems to be a great deal of effort into educating young people but hardly any effort toward encouraging adults over the age of forty into developing some sort of intellectual life.
I consider myself as a Johnny Appleseed od Critical Thinking. Critical Thinking is a vital part of any pertsons intellectual foundation. My goal is to attempt to awaken as many adults to the fact that they lack much and that an intellectual life can be very rewarding.
I suspect most of you who have a problem with what I am trying to do are younger than my intended audiance. You have other fish to fry and that is understandable. I do not see why you should feel threatened by what I am doing but apparently you are. But, hey, thats your problem and you will probably grow out of it. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 13:04:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I am not sure what problem you and your friends have but I will be more than willing to state my position.<snip>
Honestly, I don't have a problem. I've seen a pattern of behavior and I was curious about it. That's about it. Maybe I came on too strong. . . . Oh, and these guys arn't my friends. I just USE them for information. 
quote:
<snip>I consider myself as a Johnny Appleseed od Critical Thinking. Critical Thinking is a vital part of any pertsons intellectual foundation. My goal is to attempt to awaken as many adults to the fact that they lack much and that an intellectual life can be very rewarding.
A-HA! Now we're getting somewhere. THIS is what you're up to. Ok, fair enough - you're into planting the seeds of ideas and seeing what comes up.
quote:
I suspect most of you who have a problem with what I am trying to do . . . .<snip>
Again, no problems. . . . |
-Chaloobi
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 13:16:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I suspect most of you who have a problem with what I am trying to do are younger than my intended audiance. You have other fish to fry and that is understandable. I do not see why you should feel threatened by what I am doing but apparently you are. But, hey, thats your problem and you will probably grow out of it.
Ah-ha.
I believe I see your push now. Although I fear you may be preaching to the choir on critical thinking. There are sections of your postings which include a philosophical component which we are responding to. However, I would suggest that merely a knowledge of philosophy is not enough to improve reasoning. Knowledge of logic and rules of debate/evidence is far more useful to critical reasoning.
I don't particularly feel threatened by you, just perplexed why you have chosen to state obvious logical constructs which, through extended contact with members of this board, I know most of the denizens here agree to abide by.
And, I'm 36. I doubt I'll grow out of it.
Perhaps you'd like to engage in some of the conversations (some philosophic in nature) already here instead of stating critical thinking truisms and limited philosophical concepts. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 13:41:02 [Permalink]
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| If the shoe does not fit don't wear it. If you know more than the next guy, great, but if you think that most people are as informed about Critical Thinking as you are then your experience is far different from my own. Be happy that others are perhaps learning what you already know. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 16:09:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
My experience leads me to the conclusion that adults in the US are unaware of many fundamental intellectual matters. They are also very intellectually lazy and intellectually unsophisticated.
THAT is an understatement of titanic proportion. And not a problem easily fixed. Also, as has been said, your pretty much preaching to the choir here about the need for critical thinking.
If you have signifigant free time, get a couple of likeminded people together from your local area, write up a proposal for including critical thinking in your local schools, and go lobby your local city and county politicians. None of them will refuse to schedule an appiontment with you, and if you have a good presentation you might even make an impression. Lobby for critical thinking skills to be taught to highschool students.
I write my local/state/and federal politico's atleast once or twice a year with a list of stuff I want them to deal with. Wish I had the luxury of camping out on their doorsteps :) |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 16:13:55 [Permalink]
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| Different strokes for different folks. |
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