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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
 Posted - 07/16/2004 : 09:00:48
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Some of you, I'm sure, have had this discussion before. I think this is an interesting question (below, from another discussion board) and I can only speculate about the answer.
Anybody have an easy answer? Maye some of you would want to join in on the discussion:
http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2418&st=0#entry55231
"Can any one provide a scientific explanation...
Why do virtually all human beings consider sunsets, ocean horizons, the grand canyon, flowers, scenic vistas, etc. to be beautiful?
The old generic Darwinist responses don't work at all here. For example, it is absurd to contend that an australopithecus who thought the sunset looked nice had a reproductive advantage over the australopithecus who thought it looked ugly. So you'll have to try harder.
The point that beauty is subjective is better, but does not address the challenge directly. Beauty may well be subjective, but that does not explain the consensus regarding natural beauty.
Finally, the scientific minds may object that there is no consensus or that I can't prove it. Of course I can't prove it. But I would be shocked if those scientific minds don't honestly consider a sunset with irridescent hues saturating the sky to be appealing to the senses. Or the freshness of a spring misty rain to smell pleasant.
So the question stands: why do virtually all human beings consider sunsets, ocean horizons, the grand canyon, flowers, scenic vistas, etc. to be beautiful? "
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 10:06:05 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote:quote:
Anybody have an easy answer?
Yeah, the easy answer is that neurology doesn't yet have an answer, but that the question may have a definitive answer sometime in the next hundred, thousand, or million years.
This may be presumptive, but... Katar's question may just be out of curiosity, or it may have a "if there's no scientific answer, the answer must be God" sort of motive (which I suspect due to Darwin creeping into it). If the latter, just because there's no scientific answer now doesn't mean that one will never exist.
Actually, thinking about this more, Katar is wrong when she/he states that the Darwinist answer doesn't work. Every thought process we have now evolved for a reason, or is a by-product of a thought process which evolved for a reason. Fear of the unknown, for example, should be obvious. Appreciation of "natural beauty" may very well be a "side effect" of the "beauty detectors" built into our brains for mating purposes. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 10:14:43 [Permalink]
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| Sure, and I speculated that enjoyment itself is something that helps keep us alive, and yes, I am assuming that his/her answer has something to do with things that have no basis in reality at all. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/16/2004 10:15:33 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 10:45:43 [Permalink]
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I've never seen something more ugly than a bloated bloody sun sinking into a cold, gray ocean; especially with the dark cold of the night that follows.
EDIT: And there's nothing more stuffy than a snow-covered tree. It makes my skin crawl every time I see an Ansel Adams snow scape. 
EDIT: There's nothing that can ruin my appetite like the smell of some stank nasty flower. Ick. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 07/16/2004 12:22:05 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 11:00:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Some of you, I'm sure, have had this discussion before. I think this is an interesting question (below, from another discussion board) and I can only speculate about the answer.
Anybody have an easy answer? Maye some of you would want to join in on the discussion:
http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2418&st=0#entry55231
"Can any one provide a scientific explanation...
Why do virtually all human beings consider sunsets, ocean horizons, the grand canyon, flowers, scenic vistas, etc. to be beautiful?
The old generic Darwinist responses don't work at all here. For example, it is absurd to contend that an australopithecus who thought the sunset looked nice had a reproductive advantage over the australopithecus who thought it looked ugly. So you'll have to try harder.
The point that beauty is subjective is better, but does not address the challenge directly. Beauty may well be subjective, but that does not explain the consensus regarding natural beauty.
Finally, the scientific minds may object that there is no consensus or that I can't prove it. Of course I can't prove it. But I would be shocked if those scientific minds don't honestly consider a sunset with irridescent hues saturating the sky to be appealing to the senses. Or the freshness of a spring misty rain to smell pleasant.
So the question stands: why do virtually all human beings consider sunsets, ocean horizons, the grand canyon, flowers, scenic vistas, etc. to be beautiful? "
Primarily I see a problem with equating finding nature beautiful with some sort of advantage to be a misapplication of Darwinist theory. There is also the problem with children not finding sunsets or the Grand Canyon beautiful, but rather interesting. Is the person actually talking about an instictual response or are they mistaking a societal response.
Asthetics are in the eye of the beholder. While some things are societally widespread (sunsets, the ocean, colorful rock formations, etc), they are not universal. In some cultures who have never seen the ocean, it may be viewed as frightening or ugly. Likewise, the conditions under which the beautiful vistas are viewed also shapes perception.
There are some smokestacks in Lockport which I think look asthecally pleasing, but only if I discount the billowing smoke that somethimes comes from it and the stench that the plant occassionally makes. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 04:51:16 [Permalink]
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Just a hunch, but most people do tend to be attracted to those things somewhat out of the ordinary. Plus, we seem to be all a little apprehensive when looking out across a seemingly endless vista, or down into a deep ravine where the bottom is obscured. For some, it may be curiousity, or a strong desire to know what's down there. For others, it may be fear of falling or a fear of what we don't know. These are reactions that affect our survival through awe or bewilderment. If we have a positive feeling about the mystery before us, it is beautiful. If our experience is negative, we will most likely find it repulsive.
Next, as Val inferred, we are taught as children to hold those things that stretch our imagination, (but do not imbue a great sense of dread), as being beautiful.
As for sunsets, the human mind is attracted to rich, vibrant colors. Do we need a biology lesson here? I do not know of a single culture that does not use color in some way to signify the human equivalent of estrus...or at least, to make a person appear more attractive to others.
Maybe, the reason we find things beautiful, aside from being told so, is that we have evolved an inquisitive, problem solving brain that demands it's own rewards. Beauty is only the word to signify those things we feel are appealing. If our brains see a warm, colorful sunset as the prelude to rest and shared comforts, and the end to a long, hot day of labor, then we'll find sunsets appealing.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 10:48:07 [Permalink]
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What a complicated issue. Beauty can be so many things. If we're talking about general things that have been around with us all the time in nature, then perhaps it's tempting to say that we find it beautiful so that we wont destroy it. But that would imply someone made us that way, which I don't agree with (and even so, it didn't seem to work too well since we're not that bothered by what effect we have on our surrounding). It could also mean that we through evolution changed to gain that attitude. But I wonder if that can be right... after all it's not until relatively recently that we've decided to ruin parts of nature with any considerable amount of enthusiasm.
Could it be so that the organisms that appreciate its surrounding, more easily appreciate life itself, and therefor live longer? But then again most of us do not appreciate some things while we appreciate others, for example a burnt out forest is not very pretty to most of us, perhaps because there's very little in it for us to use. Many animals that are dangerous aren't considered beautiful (i'm thinking of snakes, spiders, etc.) either, perhaps? If we consider other senses, such as taste and smell, we use it to detect, for example, food that's gone bad or perhaps meat from a sick animal, so that we wont eat it. Could it be so that we find some things beautiful simply because they're not "ugly"?
Edit: Or could it be so simple that our senses just happen to like certain stimulation, such as lots of colours etc? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
| Edited by - Maverick on 07/17/2004 10:50:17 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 15:17:26 [Permalink]
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I tend to find beauty in dangerous things. A tiger, great white sharks, the ocean, any predatory animal for that matter, ect... If it's capable of causing massive damage I tend to think of it in terms of beauty.
I have often wondered if the perception of such beauty is a survival trait. It tends to bring the awareness of dangerous things to sharp attention, making your aware of things on more than one preceptual level (I don't mean to imply anything supernatural here, by level I mean things like interesting, dangerous, desirable, ect... or maybe a better way to say it is giving an object multiple meanings within your perception...), giving your mind more than one possible way to percieve things.
So, if your more aware of something, and you understand the danger presented, your more likely to survive.
I know that offers no explanation of why non-dangerous things are also percieved as beautiful... but maybe there is some connection. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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